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Tony: I believe that this webpage is called “Your say”, meaning that you are free to have your say on the desal plant.
If you think what I’m saying is rubbish, fine. I’m mostly preaching to the atheists here. However, don’t just dismiss people by saying “I don’t want to hear what you have to say”. If what I’m saying is rubbish, rebut it using factual evidence. Correct me if I’m wrong, for I didn’t make this website, but this webpage would have been created to stimulate informed and sensible debate.
I’m no stranger to having things thrown back in my face without any evidence; scroll down to around the 200th and 100th comment on this page, and you’ll find me again.
Also, by me saying that you don’t represent everyone, it wasn’t the “environmentally conscious” part of what you said, but rather the “we all oppose this plant” bit. I don’t oppose it. Hence, it’s not “we all”. You could say, “most of us oppose this plant” or “the majority of us oppose the plant”, and then back it up with evidence, and that would be find. No problem, despite it contradicting me (if it does).
YAY TO THE DESALINATION PLANT!
I’d like to know this groups credentials? Yes I agree we should have a right to voice our opinions, but please make it an informed one. I’m sick of people wanting their cake and eat it too. Practice what you preach, if you really opposed the desal on environmental reasons, you’d oppose most water solutions, since they all have some impact on the environment whether it be directly or indirectly. Work out your own environmental footprint and impact before you start to preach to others about theirs.
Also Phil, this is an ANTI-DESALINATION PLANT WEBSITE.
So considering that you agree with the plant, I don’t want to hear what you have to say. And I assume neither do the rest of us here.
SAY NO TO DESALINATION!
Phil I am sorry but you have got to agree that compared to 50 years ago there are a hell of a lot more Melbournians today that are concerned about excess engergy use, carbon emissions and their effects on the environment. I am not a writer so maybe I don’t word things properly.. you know what I meant.
Phil, would the north-south pipeline, or do dams produce as many carbon emissions as a desalination plant?
“We are a new generation of environmentally concious
Australians… we all appose this plant!”
Might I ask: who is “we”???
I’m assuming that the “new generation of environmentally concious Australians” means young people at the moment. I’d just like to point out that I’m one of them, and I agree with the desalination plant, and that I greatly resent you claiming to represent everyone in the generation, because it is not true.
Speaking of environmentally conscious; you support a North-South pipeline. Won’t THAT hurt the environment??
And the only alternative is dams. The environmental effects of dams are far, far worse that that of a desal plant and yet, is the only feasible alternative.
I think the North-South Pipeline, Water Tanks and very
strict stage 4 water restrictions for a few years will
together provide enough water to replenish Melbourne’s
water supplies!
PLEASE VICTORIAN GOVERNMENT! Don’t build a stupid desal
plant! We are a new generation of environmentally concious
Australians… we all appose this plant!
I am not cool
911 Was Really Bad lol
VIRUSVIRUSVIRUSVIRUSVIRUSVIRUSVIRUSVIRUSVIRUSVIRUSVIRUSVIRUSVIRUSVIRUSVIRUSVIRUSVIRUSVIRUSVIRUSVIRUSVIRUSVIRUSVIRUSVIRUSVIRUSVIRUSVIRUSVIRUSVIRUSVIRUSVIRUSVIRUSVIRUSVIRUSVIRUSVIRUS
GET THE ZOMBIES OFF OUR LAWN.MY ZEN ZEN GARDEN OWNS YOURS BITCHES> GO PLANTS OWN THE ZOMBIES!!!!!!!!
i told u to get of the fuckin lawn last week
u bloody pricks
No prosenack
or how ever the hell u spell ur last name
mmmmmmm
food
i love food because it makes me really fat
yummm
i want to eat you
yummm
NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO RICHARD YOU SON OF A BITCH
DONT DRINK WATER! Fish have sex in it.
If we go on with this idea, everyday we wake up Melbourne will have pollution in the sky and never be a clear sky again. Imagine it. It will be just bad.
If we install water tanks in our yards it will NOT make a big impact. Because when the water tank is full of water we can use that water for things like
Cleaning the car
Water the plants EVERYDAY
There are lots of things we can do when our water tank is full!!!
I think that this desalination plant will be a great idea for our purposes. But this doesn’t mean we are out of the drought. This plan is just a way of water being used every minute of the day.
In one of the articles that I have read, if we install water tanks in our homes, then it will have a great impact on Melbourne’s water storages. Either way we will still have water as long as we don’t take it as a waste, but as a big resource in Melbourne.
I think sometimes that why are we dong this?
Why are we destroying our own planet?
Is this Appropriate what we are about to do?
No, it’s not. If we build this plant we will be damaging the world even more. As this is a big issue why can’t the government start buying water tanks and puting it in every home.
In this case we are looking after the planet.
Just imagine if we went on with this idea. Our enviroment will be destroyed, there will be less water in the sea, it’s not fair that were taking all the water away from our sea creatures and we are just making more proplems for ourselves.
We don’t need all of this. We need our water tanks to save water from stroms, raining days and such.
So please don’t go on with this idea.
More proplems for us. The more we have to do.
Water tanks are the best and the most easiest idea.
Oh i found it out. To get to the other side
lolololololololol
Why did the chicken cross the road?
Its a mystery
yay 300th comment
I laugh
This is more embarrasing than that time i 4got how to sit down haha
I can make smiley faces LOL
:I :Penis LOL
You are all *&&%$^%#%#@#^%% and you should %@#^%$#$%^^!!!!
LOL
Dont build a deslination plant!
Build a bomb testing site and put all the people who thought of the desal plant in the middle of the bomb site LOL
Whoops! I thought of the Desal plant!
Oh my *%$#@@!##%%$ god!!
mr sugar man sup lol
hey tom m8
To all Gippslanders that are in the path of the electricity source to be carried to Kilcunda. I have it from a source extremely close to the power industry that land will be compulsorily acquired to enable construction of the electricity pylons. These pylons will carry 66 - 125kva wires (and possibly greater) and easements will be created in and around the pathway. To those out there that are considered updating/upgrading irrigation (eg on vegetable farms), hold off. If these lines are to intersect you property you could be adversely affected.
eveyonre in this class is in so much troble lol
lol im realy not funny ahahhahahaha lol
What is a spin doctor? (Mentioned by Anthony on December 24th.
nooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo
i like to touch people it feels good
u are all needls
hey eveybody my names doctor nick
i wish i had a million dollars
hey gys i will die if you wanna build your mum. omg
can i hae your hand plz
Plants vs zombies b
i wish there was all peace in the world
I LIKE WOMEN LOLOLOLOLOLOLOL P.S Its oposite day
LOLOLOLHARDERHARDERLOOLOLOLOL
If we dont make a desalination plant somewhere, we will indefinatly run out of water.
I think that the proposed area is a beautifal and vibrant land. Australia is ‘gurt by sea’ so why can’t we build elsewere.
MW
i am a crocodile and will eat your brain because i am an alien. i am an alien
i think that they should go on witht the desalination platn, but if they do they should find away to make it more descreat and less in the way
we need water lets do the desal plant
huddo likes men
hi i think that jack is the best and the desalanation plan is the sickiest in the world !!! i like water ilyz
im gay
i agree
hey i like men
from darcy
this site is badly set out and should have info everywhere
hi
thats what she said!
i agree wit everything that was just said
p.s i am drunk not as i think u aren’t
zombies, you downer
We dont want zombies on our lawn!!!
NOOOOOOOOOO OLD GUY
Young kids these days
Shut up
P.S Get off the lawn
hi im andy and ur all idiots
i’m right aren’t I..
every single person against this thing obviously has no brain and lives in fairyworld
These People have no lives and whats up with Michele Michaud she’s a f’n RETARD
sorry guys, we’re doing an assignment and people are being retards and posting stupid stuff
jay ur a nutcase u hav no idea wat is goin on. i am against the site.
p.s NO JAY
NOOOO JARRED
Smoke weed evryday…rofl
no DEADLY GUY( MATT McQuiggan)
stop posting on blogs about you peronal reatrded life
hello.
I’m fully sick to the power of rad.
shut up Jon
U know
Like every day
u guys are spastics if u dont want this desalination plant. if we run out of water what do we do? how would we have showers and stuff like that. i do not agree with you one bit. and change the site im sick of it
Shut up Jake
bens gay
Hippies let me go up!!!!
god im gonna help us with water
not kill us with fumes!
im good 4 this place!
well i care if we lose water im in school now so
yea we need water??? so wtf r u complaning bout Ross
I agree with the losers, use the water from the north
im a jedi
i come in peace
i think you guys suck with this water stuff
you should start thinking about our ways of catching water at the planet tatooine
I do not agree with yous guys. Don’t you care if we run out of water. you guys are crazy
wtf ur a reatard
i just sayin that its a win/lose situation
wHO cARES? jaYS A RETARD
i’m going up!!
im strongly agreeing with anon, anon is right and atleast he/she knows what to say GOOD JOB MATE
I LUV SALT WATER CROCS
i like water. Its tasty. Salty water tasts better.
well i think its gud and bad
we get more water
wild life dies
we can sustain more life with more water
we lose endagerd wildlife \
so all in all its a win lose situation
SPAMSPAMSPAMSPAMSPAMSPAMSPAMSPAMSPAMSPAMSPAMSPAMSPAMSPAMSPAMSPAMSPAMSPAMSPAMSPAMSPAMSPAMSPAMSPAMSPAMSPAMSPAMSPAMSPAMSPAMSPAMSPAMSPAMSPAMSPAMSPAMSPAMSPAMSPAMSPAMSPAMSPAMSPAMSPAMSPAMSPAMSPAMSPAMSPAMSPAMSPAMSPAMSPAMSPAMSPAMSPAMSPAMSPAMSPAMSPAMSPAMSPAMSPAMSPAMSPAMSPAMSPAMSPAMSPAMSPAMSPAMSPAMSPAMSPAMSPAMSPAMSPAMSPAMSPAMSPAMSPAMSPAMSPAMSPAMSPAMSPAMSPAMSPAMSPAMSPAMSPAMSPAMSPAMSPAMSPAMSPAMSPAMSPAMSPAMSPAMSPAMSPAMSPAMSPAMSPAMSPAMSPAMSPAMSPAMSPAMSPAMSPAMSPAMSPAMSPAMSPAMSPAMSPAMSPAMSPAMSPAMSPAMSPAMSPAMSPAMSPAMSPAMSPAMSPAMSPAMSPAMSPAMSPAMSPAMSPAMSPAMSPAMSPAMSPAMSPAMSPAMSPAMSPAMSPAMSPAMSPAMSPAMSPAMSPAMSPAMSPAMSPAMSPAMSPAMSPAMSPAMSPAMSPAMSPAMSPAMSPAMSPAMSPAMSPAMSPAMSPAMSPAMSPAMSPAMSPAMSPAMSPAMSPAMSPAMSPAMSPAMSPAMSPAMSPAMSPAMSPAMSPAMSPAMSPAMSPAMSPAMSPAMSPAMSPAMSPAMSPAMSPAM
mo billybobbillybobbillybobbillybobbillybobbillybobbillybobbillybobbillybobbillybobbillybobbillybobbillybob
noo jack do your work
yes its a good idea we need water
IT IS A GOOD IDEA SO WE DON”T RUN OUT OF WATER!!!!!
You people are all environment needs to be protected
Well when we run out of water
Will the environment protect us
… yea don’t think so
Get a grip.
LOL i can’t believe you guys think beat this project, i personally cant wait until it is built
PS. I live and work in the area
Those who say the desal plant will ruin the look of the area have obviously never been there, otherwise they would have been just as vocal about the construction of the hideous macmansions that seem to be proliferating in that very location.
[I agree that such a plant would be an environmental disaster. Pollution and the by-products of such a plant would have to be addressed in a better way than just more dumping in the ocean. ]
What pollution ? the salt already came from the sea, desalination just takes the water. The rain (freshwater) that falls on the ocean replaces the water, dilutes the salt……where’s the problem ?
After reading an article in the Sun Newspaper, I am very much opposed to the desalination plant. As usual the Government departments begin to go ahead with projects even when public opinion is against them.
I agree that such a plant would be an environmental disaster. Pollution and the by-products of such a plant would have to be addressed in a better way than just more dumping in the ocean. Why not try to recycle stormwater? Why not try to get flood water from the north piped down somehow. Surely there are ways to better improve our water supplies than creating more problems and more pollution.
It should definetly be built. It will not destroy anything. Even if it does, it beats running out of water. Get a grip you silly hippies! Perth uses Desal. There not chocking on fumes and catching fish with 3 eyes. The sooner it’s built. The sooner the dams will rise once again, and you protesters will look silly when the only thing that happens is that dams rise above 50%.
Your water your say.
Well my Say is build the Plant. There are 100s of these plants world wide, with little or no issues. I think this is a Big Case of not in my back yard. Like the crowns that stopped the wind farms at Walkerville for the non existing Orange Belly Parot.
If the power lines are issue, Simple put a small Nuc plant there as well.
People wake up to your-selves and stop being so selfish.
Actually the government spin doctors have claimed that carbon credits will be purchases to cover the plant, which means that it will provide significant investment into the development of renewable energy and construction of more wind farms, tidal energy etc.
I’m not sure that anyone is arguing that desalination doesn’t use a lot of energy, but in context it’s probably not too high a price to pay for making sure people and businesses don’t run out of water.
Business Excellence, Vol 1, Issue 4 Summer 2008/2009
Article “Destined for Drought? Coalition finds holes in Labour’s water Conservation strategy”
Author Peter Ryan
” A large scale desalination plant will impose significant environmental costs on Victoria. The plant will increase Victoria’s power consumption by 1.4 percent. The Government’s spin doctors claim the plant will be powered by renewable energy but the harsh truth is it will increase the State’s C02 production by more than 1 million tonnes per year”
I absolutely agree that rainwater tanks have their place. I’ve got one on my home that the water company gave me a thousand dollar rebate on. It’s useful for the washing but they reccomend I don’t use it for drinking without proper filtering (I guess that’s to do with less air quality living in the city or something).
Unfortunately heaps of Melbournians live in apartments, so there are forty or fifty homes sharing effectively the same roof area, so tanks aren’t as impactful for them.
It’s interesting that you say that desal is ‘an easy response as it does not rely on rainfall.’ It’s important that we recognise it is actually the only response that doesn’t rely on rainfall to some degree.
Assuming (and I know that’s a dangerous word) that the appropriate measures are taken to make the plant as sustainable as possible, this plant is an insurance policy I definitely want to have.
Hi.
Recycling at home has taught people to be responsible when it comes to household waste. It has taught people that it is wrong and we have a responsibility not to send all our plastics, glass and aluminium into landfill.
If every Melbourne home had a water tank, connected to their toilets and laundry, it would not only have a tremendous impact on Melbourne’s water storages, but it would promote careful water use and the value of water in Australian cities. A desalination plant is just a quick fix response, and an easy response to the drought as it does not rely on rainfall. It does not promote sustainable water use and if anything promotes unessasary energy use.
Anthony.
The location is definitely an interesting point. It’s clear that the plant needs to be on open ocean and needs to link fairly easily into Melbourne’s system.
Generally that means it needs to be East of Melbourne and on the coast. Wonthaggi fills both of those needs.
Your concerns about marine life are valid too, but the design of the project, from what I’ve seen, suggests that open ocean disperses the salty output fairly quickly, which will at least minimise that impact.
The visual presence also shouldn’t be much of a problem, but that would depend on how the group that ends up getting the contract responds to the government’s requirements.
As for costs - I hope they can cut them, as long as they don’t cut corners to do so.
I agree, desal is the only way we will keep up with population growth. But it has to be done right, the cost cutting methodology of the government and contractors has totally made me change my mind on the wonthaggi DESAL. It could be done properly down there as not to effect any marine life. No matter where it goes it will always look out of place on any coastline not developed(ie melbourne, geelong etc).
If they do it right in wonthaggi go for it. But the way things are going no matter where it’s put they will cut costs and disrupt alot of people and animals.
Excellent idea, because a forest will contribute heaps of water to our storages.
The point, folks, is that any rainfall dependent source of water is by definition unsustainable because we are no longer getting enough rainfall to supply our population.
That’s why rainwater tanks aren’t enough, that’s why recycling can only contribute so much, and that’s why desalination needs to be included as part of the solution.
I came up with it today - Plant a forest, don’t build a plant!
I was discussing this with a friend at work, that we need more sustainable approach to water.
As the old indian proverb says:
“When the last tree has died,
When the last river has been poisoned,
When the last fish has been caught,
Only then will you learn that money can’t be eaten.”
I would like to direct you to the following article from ‘The Australian’ regarding the safety of recycled water. I’m sure desalinated water is much safer than drinking ’safe’ sewerage! http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/story/0,25197,24572253-28737,00.html
And what are the levels currently Phil - 8.5% and 14% at each plant. A long way from the levels proposed.
Why not start spending some of the $1.4b surplus (just announced) on bringing water recycling levels forward. The “water”, the infrastructure etc is all largely there. Any additional requirements would not amount to $3.1b.
RE: JC
My views on this are stated in around the 200th comment on this page.
I will refer you to the following webpage: http://www.melbournewater.com.au/content/water_recycling/recycling_water_for_a_greener_future/recycling_water_for_a_greener_future.asp
This webpage states: “…Victorian Government’s target of 20% water recycling by 2010. The Government has announced new recycling targets requiring 6200 million litres of recycled water substituting for drinking quality water by 2015, increasing to 10,000 million litres by 2030.” If you scroll to the bottom of the page on the afore mentioned webpage, there is a table. It clearly shows that the recycling levels ARE being increased.
As for no debate happening around recycled water, as a test I typed in ‘recycled water’ into The Age Newspaper’s archive’s search engine. I found over 200 articles and investigations, etc, relevant to recycling water in Melbourne and Victoria.
Phil, in fact someone has.
I refer you to my post of 01/10 and the percentages of recycled water per that post (taken from MWC). Why are we seeing no debate around this? Why are the recycle levels not increased using the technology already there on site? Why are the 20% levels (proposed for 2011 and beyond) not brought forward? All reasonable questions Phil. I dont see any responses from govt or others re this lack of will to use an existing resource. Perhaps you can provide me (and others) with your thoughts?
To anyone who has suggested all of these “much better alternatives” to desalination, I have yet to find someone who has specified these. Water tanks? Well, it aint raining. Recycled water? Well that takes up energy too, and this is already being done. Any other bright ideas?
“Another Ian”, my description of the DSE is as about as complimentary as it gets. As you have suggested to me re fact finding on the pros/cons on the Desal, I humbly suggest you read at least the Executive Summary of the report I mentioned. The report was released in July and only runs several hundred pages. Scathing of the DSE and its practices, or lack therof, would be an under statement. Unfortunately, however, this report did not and has not received the media attention that it rightly deserved. There are sytemic problems within the DSE - from the top down - and it is those few remaining field officers that are copping it in the neck unnecessarily.
I agree with you that there are “perception” problems around recycled water. However, we have seen enough advertising on other projects that are supposed to be “in our best interest.” Yes the percentages were from the site - thanks for the compliment!! I will have to go back and check on the volume potential of recylced water but, to say the least, it was not an insignificant amount.
You seem to have a deal of water knowledge? Am I correct? Do you work in the area? If so, you must have some idea of what it may cost to upgrade to potable standards and what equipt upgrades may be required?
JC, re your 1 Oct post:
“Cold seawater…work harder…use more energy”. Did they happen to give a percentage difference? Agree that water is more viscous at lower temperatures, but other feedwater quality factors such as pH, alkalinity, turbidity, dissolved & suspended solids etc also influence the process.
“Recycling…then piping it to Cardinia for drinking”. Hmm, if I was a water supply authority why wouldn’t I look forward to getting involved in yet another field of argument/discussion, this time about water quality? There is still enough resistance out there to fluoridation – so who in their right mind wants to get involved in trying to convince people to drink recycled effluent, no matter to how high a standard it is treated? Tell you what, you win that argument with the general populace and I am sure the government and MWC would be eternally grateful to you – and I would even retract my use of the g word.
I think you will find that recycling is being seriously pursued, but at this stage only with water treated to Class A standard - suitable for third pipe use, as per new developments in the Cranbourne area for instance and Werribee market gardens. (Did you get those re-use figures from the MWC site – good for you if you did!) One significant barrier (cost, time, availability) is the need for new separate delivery systems for this lesser quality water. As before, if even further treatment (to WHO drinking water standards) is acceptable then the existing system could be used, but realistically I don’t think that will happen.
One of the criticisms of desal raised elsewhere has been that overseas companies will make a fortune from a guaranteed supply contract. Now you are suggesting that no one will want to build it!
JC, re your 30 Sept post:
My actual words were “your presumably much better informed brother”, using you as the reference point. Please then ask him to explain (in between any more shrills of laughter) to an electrically challenged old civil why MWC won’t be able to purchase renewable electricity credits from a distributor. I realise at any given time it can be more an accounting exercise than origin of supply, but I (naively?) believe that when you pay extra for green energy then that investment in renewable energy is taken up. Am I being ripped off? Also, can he confirm or adjust the power consumption figure of 90 MW? In my hydraulically attuned mind I think the discharge (= consumption) is more relevant than the supply pressure (= voltage).
Regarding your disregard of those sources I suggested, if you don’t look at it all you are probably only relying on one side of the debate for your information. I did recommend that you analyse/question/critique the DSE & MWC reports, so I hope you will do that with any other independent information. I repeat: those sites address a lot of the questions you posed. There is a 10 page “Desal plant fast facts” that would have enabled you to have the answers to a lot of your questions and you wouldn’t look such a ….… whatever. (I nearly said the g word.) Of course there is undoubtedly spin and gloss in that particular production, but I am sure you will be able to judge its worth for yourself.
Your description of the DSE is not very complimentary to say the least, although maybe they can spell bureauocrat properly. If you hadn’t taken me to task I would even be tempted to categorise your comment as vitriol, but surely you wouldn’t stoop to that!
“Another Ian”, just a litle more info that I found:
The United Nations sanctioned UNESCO Centre for Membrane Science and Tehnology says “Victorias cold seawater would force the Wonthaggi plant to work harder and use more energy than other plants.” It also said “recycling water then pipng it to Cardinia Reservoir for drinking would keep Melbournes water costs lower.”
With recycling at the Eastern Plant at about 8.5% and Western at about 14%, why is the government uwilling to fasttrack its plans to increase recycling to 20%? This has been set as a target for 2011 and beyond. And why not, if possible, increase that percentage further. I am sure that upgrades to pumps, filtration etc would need to be improved but I wouldnt think that it would cost anywhere near the $3.1bill for the desal.
Yesterday Mr Brumby said tht due to the current world financial situation, govt infrastructure projects (such as roads and rail) would be under threat because they would be by way of PPP’s. Gee, I think he may have “conveniently” missed one. Isnt the $3.1billion Desal to be a PPP? Or is that immune from world financial events because of the way in which he likes to think he is god and senior headkicker?
“Another Ian”. Have sought out info from my “well informed brother” as you suggested. Well, just so happens that power will be 250kv at a minimum. Preliminaries are being done re what will further be required. Hope that answers that.
As for the wind turbines. His answer amongst the shrills of laughter, “dont be so bloody stupid!” “Wont happen”.
And just to answer your question - why didnt I go to my bro for answers? Gee, why do you think? The power generation industry is a pretty tight one at the moment with so many “controversial” things as part of the states infrastructure. Desal, plus NS Pipe versus coal reduction/greenhouse/climate change philosophies.
As for seeking answers from the DSE. Do you mean the Department for Sparks and Embers? Seek info from a bunch of beauraucrats that couldnt tell their backside from their elbow. DSE were a great organisation when they had people on the ground that cared. As soon as they took them away and put them in offices they became next to useless - I respectfully suggest you read the recently released report into the 2003 and 2006/07 bushfires. And, doesnt MWC have a vested interest in the project? I think I would prefer much more independent info than that.
Just wanted to let you know that I have just sent through my submission (objection) to the Planning Panel for the Desalination plant.
Thought it might help you to know that us Melburnites are not all for the Desal plant!
Let’s keep our fingers crossed that Brumby and his cronies will see sense!
JC - If the term “goose” comes under your definition of “vitriole” (sic) then I will see your “It never astounds me” and raise you with “I AM astounded”. Suitably chastened, I will try and be more genteel (or play nice as you put it). And anyway, why thank me? Oh, I get it; you were using sarcasm weren’t you?
In “trying to gather all info” for yourself, I suggest you navigate around the MWC and DSE web sites. Here you can find lots of information, from Feasibility Study to Environmental Effects Statement. Those two documents alone will address a lot of the questions you have posed. You can then analyse/question/critique and help make your informed judgement.
If your brother “is actually working pretty close to this project”, then that only further intrigues me as to what his response is to your assertion about the power requirements. How did you jump to 250 kV when your brother “further confirmed that the towers to be constructed … will be carrying between 66 and 125 kVA”? Why would you make that comment “on the basis of the questions” you asked, rather than refer to your presumably much better informed brother, or at least wait until you manage to locate the answers? So I repeat: what does your brother think of your assertion? Presumably he is working with engineers from other disciplines who are as skilled as he is. See, no jibe, just very curious as to his response. Let’s see if you can provide it.
If all you know “is that from the proposed site to Cardinia or Sugarloaf would be about 80-100 kms”, then be informed that static head refers to the difference in elevation between the source and the destination (i.e. uphill in this case hence needing to be pumped to overcome the static head plus pipe friction etc). And yes, there would most likely be additional easements for the pipeline, presuming that by additional you mean to any required for the power supply. (Once again, read the EES.)
I am also curious as to where/why the assertions by you and others that the plant will apparently be built “in an area prone to flooding”. Do you leave room for the possibility that your brother’s colleagues in hydrographics and flood plain management may have considered flood levels? The rest of your questions seem to me to best deferred until you research the information available.
Good luck with the information gathering.
I do not understand why our state government fails to admit that they got it wrong with the desalination plant plan.
The people will respect the government more if they admit that they made a mistake and don’t go ahead with the desal plant which is taking place on Wonthaggi’s beautiful coastline.
Our State Government know that there are cheaper options than desalination plants and not to mention better for “our” environment such as recycling water.
I ask myself, why don’t they just admit they are wrong? We will be much happier if we can get more water in a way that will be safer for the environment and cheaper for our tax payers.
My biggest gripe agains the desal is the location. How can ANYONE with any slight molecule of intellegence go to the site where it is to be built and go “Yep thats a good idea”
I cant explain how much the stupidity of this boggles my mind. Brumby is such an idiot, he seems to be running Victoria for himself and not the people. With this and the pipeline there have been massive protests, and yet he dosent even seem to concider any other option. He wants it done HIS way.
How could anybody to do with this project think the location was even something to concider. Its like putting a desal in the middle of Bondi beach, but only with bigger and more devistating enviromental concequences. For god sake put the money into one of the hundreds of other much better solutions.
i would do anything to stop this rediculus way of producing water when there are sooooo many cheaper and low impact alternataves. If only we as victorians and earth caring civilians could stand up to our seemingly dictating government and express our public opinions and be heard. please save our coast.
“Another Ian”. Thanks for the “goose” comment. It never astounds me that people need to go to vitriole to “enhance” their view.
I personally, dont have a view one way or another re the de-sal. At this point in time I am trying to gather all info for myself to make an informed judgement. The “goose” coment does help to sway things, however.
As for the Kv required and my brother. He is actually working pretty close to this project so has some pretty good knowledge as to what the power requisites may be.
The 250kv comment is mine, on the basis of the questions I asked - where is this water being pumped to? A 170m static head means nothing to me. All I know, for example, is that from the proposed site to Cardinia or Sugarloaf would be about 80 - 100klms. If the HV Lines are to be overhead, then there is still the requirement for additional easements to be created for the pipe (to whatever storage dam). Can these be put into a “single hole” as is done with domestic? Or will more of peoples land be devalued due to the easements? Just something for you to consider “Another Ian.” And see, not one jibe anywhere. Lets see if you can play “nice.”
Just a few more whilst this “goose” thinks of it. Having previously lived down past Wonthaggi for about 7 years, I am also curious as to why they would consider building a plant in an area prone to flooding? How will they also justify putting the extraction pipe through the dunes? Are the tidal flows in and out of the Powlett river going to be disturbed? Where might those wind turbines be situated? Does the Desal plant area have enough land for the number/concentration required to power the thing? If not, where will they be sited?
JC, why don’t you get your brother (the electrical engineer) to comment on your assertion that the supposed 125 kV line (if that is what is required) might need to be 250 because other engineers, presumably not as skilled as your bro, might not have allowed for the fact that the water will be pumped UPHILL (you know, from sea level to say Cardinia or about 170 m static head). How big a goose are YOU?
Wind power works - of course it is variable, but as I said, every clean kWhr generated leads to reductions in coal power station output. See Iain McLaren’s post of 14 July - he wants Melbourne’s stormwater pumped all the way to the Murray via settling ponds and using wind power. That might be unrealistic, but it backs my point that other alternatives still require power, either for the collection, treatment and/or the transport.
“Another Ian.” One problem with your argument re wind energy is that turbines still need spike power to get them moving. My brother, an electrical engineer, has confirmed that a turbine requires between 8 to 10 knots before it cn be self providing. He has further confirmed that the towers to be constructed across Gippslan will be carrying between 66 and 125kva. So, I would hasten to suggest that thats a pretty energy hungry plant.
Of interest are the comments in the last few days that the Govt will have the authority to “control” to a certain extent how much water will be provided by the PPP up to the 150gl cap. So, at the maximum extracted the consumer gets the bet deal. If less is “required” the consumer pays for the privilege.
I am also yet to see/hear anything as to which dam/dams this water is going to. Does anyone know the answer to this? If the NS Pipeline or Goldfields Pipe is anything to go by, thats going to be a big long dig thats going to occur. And what might the route of that be? Which community(ies) will be sacrificed for that? Given that any pipeline wil be going over hill and over dale, that pump at the Desal end might jut require a little energy boost also! Hmm, more power required. Perhaps those towers might push 250kva plus.
I’ve been to the Maldives for work. Whilst there (and I was only there for 2 days) one of the things that concerned the people I spoke to the most was their complete reliance on oil as fuel for their desalination plant(s).
This highlights to me one of the problems with building reliance on a desal plant for Melbourne.
1. It doesn’t teach the people to rely on themselves and to take care of their environment; it teaches them that water is just another commodity that can be bought with no regard for how it is obtained.
2. It builds a dependence on the “good will” of the corporation in control of the water; something that isn’t healthy. Look at the UK and what has happened there over the years with the water privatisation.
3. It guarantees that we will all be paying more for the water for ever. Not only are we to pay for the building of the plant, but for it’s running costs as well. The only winner is the corporation that owns the plant.
nice comments another Ian and Phil,
Something had to be done about carbon pollution. How else will you get industry to convert to and develop products for cleaner energy.
I’m pretty sure the Latrobe Valley power plant has some sort of device to remove carbon from their emmisions. http://www.co2crc.com.au/dls/media/07/LV_PCC_project_mediarel.pdf
I heard around 80-90% of the carbon can be removed.
So I highly doubt the plant will go broke, it’ll be able to provide the desal with power.
And like i’ve said before, if it doesn’t rain the dams and tanks can’t fill.
By way of introduction, I am not the Ian that has appeared earlier (Dec 07 to June 08), although coincidentally I do hold similar views to him.
For what it’s worth, my take (and using information / reports from MWC or DSE websites) on what seem to be the objections:
GREENHOUSE GASES.
Renewable energy is the way to go, but then it seems that windfarms aren’t acceptable to everyone either. Whatever we do, base load coal powered stations look like being around for a long time, but wind farms are an effective alternative and nearly every kWhr generated leads to an equal reduction in coal powered generation. Farmers have used windmills for hundreds of years so they must be relatively effective in the right circumstances.
This issue is still a problem with stormwater recycling and/or treated effluent re-use since water at the lowest end of the gravity system has to be collected, transported, treated to some degree and then re-introduced into the water system, or into a new (third pipe) system. Do the proponents of those schemes have some greenhouse friendly methods of powering them?
NIMBY – why here?
Port Phillip was at least considered (2 sites – east (off Carrum) and west (off Werribee)) but is too constrained a body of water – remember YWYS seems to be concerned about brine discharge/mixing effects. “Surf Coast” – this was feasible, but unfortunately (for Wonthaggi) the existing water supply infrastructure is geared around east to west transfer of water due to historical development. Transfer would have been restricted, requiring more/larger pipelines further in to the existing distribution system.
(NIMBY – wind farms)
If the wind blows (strong/long/more reliably) near the coast, as well as other sites, then that’s where these installations should go. Don’t you think the Latrobe Valley residents would prefer to have the power stations somewhere else?
DESTROYING THE COAST.
Some contributors mention the pristine nature of the coast is what led them to purchase beach houses. Anyone else see a contradiction? Plenty of contributors by admission haven’t visited the site, but are sure it is beautiful nevertheless, and nearly everyone seems to be sure that the plant will be an eyesore. With careful planning and sensible design there is no reason why the visual impacts cannot be minimised. That won’t suit everyone, but hold off a bit on the eyesore complaints until further down the track with actual design. Construction activity will be disruptive (traffic, noise, visual) but this will be temporary (2-3 years?) and would still apply for other proposals – recycling stormwater or effluent re-use.
SUCKING UP SEA LIFE.
Rocky and his fairy penguin mates probably have more to worry about from tides than intakes. The suggested likely intake velocity is 0.1 to 0.15 m/sec (Reference Project design – p 2-23 of 2.0 Marine Structures project description. I know this is not the final design, which will be up to the consortium whose bid is accepted, but it is a viable solution presented in the release). At that rate it would take 11+ mins to travel 100 m – hardly a huge suction effect. Agreed that organisms will be captured with the seawater, but positioning the intake depth and some screening can reduce this.
GOVERNMENT INACTIVITY - LACK OF PLANNING.
Always something here – who is a perfect planner? Certainly not our governments, by and large. In 1999 Melbourne’s water storages were close enough to 100%, so from one viewpoint we had a reasonable sized reserve to get us through 9 years of below average rainfall or drought or whatever people care to call it.
The problem with water supply planning etc is that it is hard to confidently predict when another dam will definitely be required, so it usually takes drought events to kick things along. Another dam? – NIMBY! (Some community is going to be affected.) Where? – are there any appropriate sites that would allow gravitation into Melbourne’s system, or would pumping still be required?
BTW, hasn’t the state opposition at various stages said that a desal plant should have been built by now? Where would they put it? How would they power it?
I have just seen that the 3 Sept media release criticises the Government(s) for not making a decision on whether to pursue the costs the courts have said they are entitled to. How did YWYS reach the conclusion that this “effectively silences the community group as they are now unable to continue to campaign or participate in the EES process”?
FINALLY
One last thing – what’s with Karu Hewett and Dom Gilligan? Are they for real? – some (a lot?) of their postings are out and out drivel.
Case in point: Karu’s 22 June history lesson has a lot of holes in it – eg MW didn’t take over Eildon (but don’t let the facts get in the way of a conspiracy); O’Shannassy Dam is a well designed and constructed diversion weir (minimal storage) that delivered water originally by aqueduct (with some piped syphons and tunnel sections) to Melbourne & to Silvan Dam (which was also built in the mid twenties for storage). Water still flows from O’Shannassy to Silvan via pipelines interlinked with supply from Upper Yarra - the original O’Shann aqueduct was often subject to washouts and even undermining by wombats of all things, as well as being open to contamination of water quality, which is one reason why it is no longer in use. Maroondah Dam, also built in the twenties (upsizing/replacing a diversion weir) is a harvesting dam that still supplies water by aqueduct as far as Yarra Glen (where it is treated in a membrane filtration plant similar to a reverse osmosis desalination process) & into Sugarloaf.
OK, one more last thing – what about Bob Malloy from June 15th “..you just deride the concerns of others because they don’t live in your neighbourhood, agree with your elitist views or drive the right kind of car.” From that post and his previous 14 June one, it seems that Bob is at least a placegetter, if not the winner, in the derision, insults and being judgemental stakes.
Over/back to you YWYS.
I forgot about my comment a few months ago, but I recently revisited it and found the page-long rant by Bob, ‘replying’ to my comment. I’m pleased that you replied, as it shows the structural weaknesses of your entire organisation, and the delusional beliefs that your organisation holds dear (by the way, well done to Ian).
Firstly, the court system IS independent! Maybe you should do some homework! Laws can be formulated by the government, but are also created by the courts when they choose how to interpret an existing law. Also, judges can only be fired if they reach a certain age, or when both houses of parliament judge that there has been gross misconduct or miscarriage of justice or incapability. The fact that the Victorian Courts partially halted the dredging of Port Phillip Bay, against the government’s wishes, proves beyond doubt that the court system is independent.
Your highly exaggerated statistic that the cost of water will rise 5-fold is WRONG! (again) The worst statistic that I could find was that the desal plant will add a whopping $50 annually to our water bills!!! Shock! Horror! (And you might want to know, that statistic is from The Age).
As for enough water being discharged at Werribee and Boag’s Rocks to drown Australia several times over, Werribee water is already being recycled! Millions and millions of litres of class A recycled water is distributed to 100 Werribee farmers every year (hence the Werribee market gardens).
Also, I have checked the EPA stats on Perth’s desalination plant thank you very much, and it is not a ‘toxic sewer’ as you claim. For example, the area of water where the Kiwnana desalination plant is located has seen a less than 2% increase in the amount of salinity in the water, and it is not expected to get much higher (water moves around you see).
And in case you were wondering, I am left-wing, not the right-wing conservative that you hoped I was. I believe in protecting the environment, but not to the point where the people who are supposed to be protecting the environment sink to the level where they need to abuse opponents (don’t believe me? Have a look at the rest of this page) and lie to the public (http://news.smh.com.au/national/desalination-plant-gets-green-light-20080516-2eya.html). And another thing; When the Victorian Government wanted to build dams about 10 years ago, Greenies and organisations like this were strongly against it. 7 years later, they joined the Liberal Party in condemning the government for not building any dams and that a desalination plant should be built. And now, they’re against a desal plant. Please explain?
Just another point: I am not a disadvantaged person. You are the disadvantaged person by believing all of your own propaganda on how “bad” the desal plant is. Maybe if you did some independent research, it would open your eyes. What other solutions do we have? This website appears to think that water tanks will solve everything. Um, you need rain to fill water tanks. Rain is what we DON’T HAVE! Same goes for new dams. As for recycled water, people wont drink it! And farmers already use recycled water. Do some research! That’s why we need a desal plant! And if you go by the global warming stats released by the Bureau of Meteorology, Australia as a whole, will be one of the worst affected developed countries in the world, one of the main side effects being reduced rainfall. Couple if with an increasing population, and you have the perfect reason to build a desalination plant.
If I’m the one who watches the ads between Today Tonight and A Current Affair, then you’re the one who actually watches Channel 7 or 9 news and Today Tonight and A Current Affair. I watch independent news channels, such as SBS, who actually provide balanced views, something that has obviously escaped you. I made my decision based on these programs, as well as independent research that we had to do at school. Oh, and by the way, I’m 16. Not boasting or anything but if a 16 year old can come up with better arguments than a grown man, that must be saying something. And if you have sunk to the level of abusing and insulting members of the public who merely want to express their view (as it was with Jen, Ian and I) that’s very low.
Dear Sir/Madam, 26th August 2008
I would like to share an idea on water conservation and other related matters. In relation to Western Australia’s 100 year history on bringing water from Perth to kalgoorie.
In the same manner I would like to suggest: That starting with New South Wales pipe line, that disposes of polluted chemically trated water into Bondi Beach be diverted towards the desert and planting non-edible trees therein.
It is also important that catchments for said polluted water be built around NSW in order to connect them to pipe lines leading out into the desert. This can then be duplicated and implimenr throughout Australia.
I feel that this is a start on the right direction.
Looking forward to hearing from you.
Sincerely,
Jaime Calero
122 High St.
Penrith NSW 2750
Why is the Victorian government spending billions of dollars on a desal plkant when for only a couple of millions they could seed rain clouds like Queensland and Tasmania? We used to but stopoped twenty five years ago. A symposium was held in May 2005 at the Bureau of Meteorology where the CSIRO, Monash Uni and lots of others reoundingly paased a positive tes that we should start trials here in Victoria. Chinese representatives promptly went home and started seeding, Queenslanders did likewise. Queensland dam levels went up from 18% to 42%. Come on Captain Obvious why aren’t we?
To all Gippslanders that are in the path of the electricity source to be carried to Kilcunda. I have it from a source extremely close to the power industry that land will be compulsorily acquired to enable construction of the electricity pylons. These pylons will carry 66 - 125kva wires (and possibly greater) and easements will be created in and around the pathway. To those out there that are considered updating/upgrading irrigation (eg on vegetable farms), hold off. If these lines are to intersect you property you could be adversely affected.
RE “Who are the private partners in the desalination plant venture? Can they be lobbied directly to stop the plant going ahead, instead of through the govt? ”
This is an important next step for all the proposed Vic PPP water mega-projects.
The financiers are now much more sensitive about their image than they used to be. esp with CSR (Corp. Social Responsibility) issues.
Dom
check out the front page of clean ocean foundation at www.cleanocean.org for the comparison between desal and recycling.
I really do not understand why Australia is so reluctant to recycle water! Coming from England where recyling is the norm I don’t see the problem. Most of Western Europe recycles water too.
I am aware that detractors point to hygene and health issues, but those are rare and Australian natural water is not clear of this issue anyway - Sydney and e coli for example.
Further more even the “natural” water is recycled anyway, only nature did it in the first place.
300 billion litres you say! thats a self sustaining arguement in itself.
I tried to have a discussion with David Mawer head of western port water WASTERS in the sentinal times but he wouldn’t play seeing as though the vic govenment can just tell us that we’re getting this DEVALUATION PLANT maybe we should put a big dam in our property where all the water from the glen alvie reservoir is pumped to the cowdowie reservoir then sell it back to the government. I would rather a water recycling plant,and to see all the water stolen from the north to be replaced by all the stormwater from Melbourne’s streets and homes that could be pumped by wind power into a continuous chain of settlement ponds all the way back to the Murray river or the Ovens river. By using settlement, the water would be fine for agriculture. $3000 million dollars is a lot of money to spend on a devaluation plant that will not have any energy to run it within 3 years due to the carbon emmission trading SCAM (first global tax) due to the brown coal energy in Gippsland going broke for having to pay for clean coal technology. Thanks to BRACKSY and RUDD. Let’s hope this Labor government doesn’t get back in…..state or federal.
Who are the private partners in the desalination plant venture? Can they be lobbied directly to stop the plant going ahead, instead of through the govt?
hey sam…
better alternatives include the total upgrade of the eatern treatment plant to potable (drinking) water, the upgrade of the western treatment plant and infrastructure for both plants to distribute water to residential, industrial and agricultural purpose.
If the government were forward thinking, the Eastlink road corridore was the perfect opportunity for a reuse water pipe to run from the eastern treatment plant to melbourne.
Also, with the state government now worried about sea level rise… why are they building the desal plant on/next to a flood plain?
gee sam.
you must have missed all the places where it states “Water Tanks NOT Desal Plant” & recycling the water the water that is wasted into our drains before it gets out to the ocean to desalinate????????????????????
On nearly every page on this site it states somewhere that there are better alternatives but i can’t find any other than building more catchment areas (reservoirs) which should be done as well as building the desalanation plant, not instead.
I believe what you are saying Rob is that the water sucked into the desal plant will be contaminated with human effluent.
Why would this not surprise me; its an ideal place for those wanting to lower our population. “Drink all the water you want, its good for you.”
They continue to chop down the native forests in our water catchment areas, surely for a purpose. Here is my conspiracy theory.
Bracks knew the planned agenda and being the nice bloke did not want any part of it, but instead of being a truly nice bloke and getting out, he said to the ALP “I will get you over the line in this election but from there you are on your own.” Dictator Brumby finally had his opportunity and with his short bodied, short dark haired followers who we know as State Ministers -all chosen by the ALP of course- there is no stopping the agenda.
I recently met a couple, the wife is Russian. She told her brother is in the Russian government. He rang her to tell her to come home because their government knew that by 2050 Australia would be the most southern State of China. “Its all beginning” he informed her.
Thousands of young men died protecting us from the Communist Reds during the Vietnam war. Today we do huge trade with Dictatorship Communist China. Our PM speaks perfect Mandarin.
First thing was to bring in huge numbers of immigrants who will work for far less than the spoiled Aussies who expect at least $20 an hour.
Then take all the water from the farm land - hence the reason why the dying Murray has been ignored for years. Lay a pipeline to Melbourne from the Goulbourn “The population is growing so rapidly we have no choice” is their excuse But if it is such an issue they shouldn’t have let them in.
(Please understand I am not racist, but with 300,000 immigrants allowed in the past 12 months, therefore causing an unprecedented amount of Australian’s forced onto the streets I think it would have been wise to have housed all Australians comfortably before opening the flood gates.)
The country areas dry up and the people have no income and no life in the country so they flood into Melbourne where the government can now monitor everyone so much easier. Pay for use roadtolls was perfect because everyone will end up with an E/tag on their vehicle and will be recorded everywhere, on all roads. And the 1.3 billion dollars spent on the myki ticketing system will monitor everyone everywhere we travel on public transport.
Without farms how do we eat you ask. That is also taken care of, a deep trench was scraped out of Port Phillip Bay so that huge ships from China can supply us all our needs. In the meantime “Drink the fresh water we supplied for you, go on its good for you.” The taxpayer funded ads will inform us.
The important thing to remember is that our governments do not spend money on us, they only spend our money on what is important to them. If they do spend our money on us they demand it back with interest. A good example of this is the Great Ocean Rd walking track, our money built it and now we have to pay $20 each a night to walk it.
We are allowing this to happen because we haven’t yet woken to the fact that these public servants are our employees and the longer we avoid taking back our power the harder it will become to take control.
Oh yeah, the Australian Constitution states that: All Court cases must consist of a jury of 12 of our peers. It appears that the lost Court case was unconstitutional.
Does anyone know how far the sewerage outfall is from the proposed Desal site ? Surely there are plans to close down this outfall before the plant is operatonal. I doubt anyone in Melbourne would realise the Desal plant is near a sewer outfall ?
I recently created this for all media and to test my skills at alliteration …
Brute-force Brumby Says ‘Eat Your Ps’
Dom Gilligan
Inverloch
June 15th 2008
When it comes to land dispossession and abuse of human rights in Victoria, the Reconciliation movement tells me I need to learn about my colonial past and early Victorian State departmental stuff-ups.
I think they have it wrong – I don’t need to read about it – it’s happening in front of me.
Rural people of central area of Victoria, now formed from many cultures of the world as well as the original culture of the Kulin Nation, is getting a continuous serving of injustice and dispossession under an increasingly brutish Brumby regime.
- Early in 2007 a major gas pipeline was put through Bass Coast farms and homes but soil-works, vital to farming, were messed up. There are still pissed-off land-holders in this region.
- Then in mid to late 2007 a very abrupt and major land seizure began by Brumby’s exclusive Boardroom to take over all land in front of Williamson’s Beach Bass cost for a mega salt-factory, or ‘desal plant’. Work has started at our much-loved swimming, surfing, caravanning and fishing beach zone.
- At the same time landholders North of Melbourne were forced to hand over their family home for a ‘North-South’ pipeline corridors
- Meanwhile landholders South of Melbourne were forced to hand over their family home for the pipeline corridors connecting insatiable Melbourne with the desal mega factory
- Now in 2008 landholders South And West of Melbourne get notice of the next wave of land grabbing to make a mega-pylon corridor for EMR-laden electricity to feed the mega desal factory, and a waste-dump for chemical waste from weekly pipe-cleaning of this mega-desal factory.
Bass Shire dwellers are also getting a taste of the abuse of political party power, government power and court powers. Last week we saw how a government can shut down peaceful dissent through deliberate bankruptcy of a community group. The group that took the hit this time was Your Water Your Say but it could have been any not-for-profit group opposed to brute force of an arrogant government.
Did the disgraced ex-PM John Howard pass on his fascist fetish to John Brumby?
Perhaps the ghosts of Kennett’s Cabinet took possession of the Brumby Boardroom?
We may never know the meta-physics of madness but we do know we are getting sick of the way Brumby’s Boardroom uses brute-force to steer public wealth to infrastructure corporates like Veolia and Macquarie Bank without any of the policies or plans being put to the public. We did not vote for these policies – actually we did not even vote for him!
How do you respond to complete hypocrisy of state-sanctioned pollution? When a local business pollutes with the same chemicals and hyper-saline water used by the desal factories, they can be fined heavily even jailed. The State can sanction the deliberate release of solvent chemicals, salt-water, and GHG’s under the guise of ‘securing water’ - no equality or justice in this. Fix one problem – water supply and create several more. A teenager could devise a plan like that.
We wonder what other sick schemes will be forced on us by Brute-force Brumby and his Board of Directors - what other projects will this Labour Party/Corporate marriage-of-convenience come up with next?
Maybe more mega-desal factories as forecast by Dr Coombes, a senior Federal science advisor. Perhaps there will be a push to get a nuclear power station to keep Coombes’ multiple desal factories operational?
How far can the marriage last? Will it take us to beyond Partial Privatisation Projects? Perhaps they can become Predominantly Private Partnerships and some new laws will pass to enforce tax-funding of PPPs to “filter our polluted air” or “set up mandatory carbon trading for all business, homes and schools” ?
Isn’t that privatisation of the global atmosphere?
Ok. Stop dreaming. That’s not going to happen
Would it ?
I find it amazing, the government has an agenda so they and the media start spreading the new terminology or fear and before long the majority believe the spin themselves, thereby giving the government the go ahead for their planned agenda.
When Melbourne water took over the Board of Works they sacked the bloke who for many years worked on the dam wall at Eildon and told his replacement to open the gates and let the water out. Of course Melbourne water told us the reason that Eildon became very empty. “The gates got stuck.” Ask any expert and they will tell you that it is impossible.
In 1911 Melbourne’s population was growing so a plan was implemented. O’Shannesey’s dam was built, although only tiny it was successful due to the design (due more to the fall of the land than the designers). An aqueduct was built which followed the mountains all the way from O’Shanessy dam via Warburton to Canterbury and Elgar Rd’s Surry Hills. It followed the lay of the land and it dropped at 2 inches a mile so no pumps were necessary. The Warburton Ranges, or better known as the Yarra Valley is full of spring water, the purest in the world! Along the Aqueduct is numerous spring water creeks that flow hard and fast even during the long dry hot summer. The aqueduct meet the creeks that run off the mountains and there were taps placed on the aqueduct that could be opened to let the these pure water creeks fill it up when it was running dry in the summer. Of course when Melbourne water took over they stopped it from working, and now they want to remove it all and put a nice walking track in its place.
The Dandenong Ranges, only 35km from Melbourne contains many springs also releasing an abundance of the purest fresh water, and where does it go? In to the creeks and into the Bay! None of the numerous nursery’s or market gardeners are allowed to use any of that water.
Powelltown, 80km east of Melbourne also contains an abundance of the purest water in the world. Are we allowed to drink it? Oh no of course not. A Japanese company buys it for $2 per million litres and sends it all overseas. So don’t tell me there is a water shortage. People get angry toward there neighbours for watering their beloved garden why? Because you have all been programmed. If you see a concreter or asphalter at work do you get angry? No you do not, why? Because that hasn’t been part of your programming. Concrete and asphalt use a huge amount of water, but thats alright because companies don’t have to oblige with the water rules, its voluntary.
Why is it if we truly have a water issue did the governments allow 300,000 new people into Australia in the past 12 months? The plan was always to build the infrastructure with the peoples money and then sell or give the infrastructure away. And worse still is that even though it is privatised we still pay for the upkeep. Connex needs some new rolling stock, we pay for it. Connex needs some new track, we pay for it. Connex needs some new drivers trained, yep you guessed it we paid for it and now Connex needs a new ticketing system and we will pay at least one thousand three hundred million dollars. When oil runs dry, and only then will our governments give us new technology to run our vehicles, and of course they will run on hydrogen and because water will cost so much and so will we be charged at the hydrogen pumping station. An independent court system, yeah right.
Jose vs the ASIC which was handed down on 12 December, it was dealt with on 12 December 1998.
Justice Hayne said in that he had a duty to protect the system. His job is to interpret the law and apply the law correctly. This appears to be secondary to preserving the system.
Back to the aqueduct. I find it interesting that we have a program in this country called Work for the Dole, now the interesting thing is no one who has ever been on the program, and that is all unemployed, have never done any work for the community; it is only for private businesses who require free employees under false pretenses supported by our employeed in government. Sanitarium foods used to have a factory in Warburton and when they left a number of years ago the factory remained empty, as a matter of fact it is still empty. The government could have turned it into a dormitory for hundreds of unemployed who were willing to help with our “water problem” and rebuilt the aqueduct. One of the problems with the original aqueduct design was it was open. Imagine if it was built enclosed with drainage holes on top so that the water running off the mountains during the rain could enter it. The gates would still be incorporated in it and all along and around the walls there could be placed slow turning generators producing electricity. No need for the Nuclear power station. Clean energy created by clean water I’d like to live in that state.
What are you people on about? Time to look at the big picture, and stop thinking about your little back yard. We all need more water, and we need to use technology to help our farmers, and our citizens. Go do some research and stop reading all the tree hugging hippy crap. Time to be part of the bigger picture and not part of the problem.
Thankyou Ian at least some on your side of the fence apper to have a shred of integrity.
Well said Bob! Keep it up!:)
Jen, buy a water tank, do some research on desal plants (impacts, costs etc)and please get your head out of the sand!
Losing a couple of battles, ie a court case and an order for costs does not mean YWYS has lost the war and should give up, as undoubtedly Brumby and associates hope it will.
Even if prospects of victory are not good, it is better to try and make it as difficult and unpleasant as possible for those trying to force preposterous projects.
Often just delaying bad projects allows more scrutiny of them which can reduce support and momentum and increase opposition. The Government is well aware of this and it is why they are attempting to rush construction of the desal plant and north-south pipeline.
Bob,
Upon reflection my comment about your paranoia does seem to suggest you take drugs. I therefore retract it and apologise.
Ian,
Judging by the concieted and superious nature of your posts I’m sure your bet would not put a dent in your fat, white upper middle-class wallet. I’m sure from your ivory tower the trivial concerns of the lower classes may appear like irrational conspiracy theories. However, be careful if you do happen to descend from your lofty perch you may just trip over all the independent, validated, thorough and objective research that has been conveniently ignored by you and your ilk. The reseach from around the world shows conclusively that desal is a ‘last resort’ option. Reputable economists from all over Australia including our very own Auditor General have described the plant as illogical. Which bit don’t you get Ian?
By the way YWYS doesn’t need your pity, Ian. Actually, I’m sure they pity your feeble materialism. I’m sure they knew costs were a possibility yet when has a government ever forcibly extracted them from a community organisation? Like I stated in my other post - the law is set up for governments not communities or individuals. If you can’t see that there is a problem when a group of citizens wishes question the legalities of an issue and is then forced to pay costs for both sides then you have really lost the plot. If the government was so sure of its position why did it need such a large legal team? A single QC should have sufficed if your ‘vexacious’ argument is correct. You need to do some real research too Ian. You’re out of touch with real people. People are going to hurt when this plant goes online.
Now back to your bet. Are you insinuating that I take drugs which are fuelling my paranoia? Gosh Ian that’s pretty close to a slanderous accusation. I might just take you to court and see if I could get compensation - oh, but no, you didn’t put your real name in did you. How clever! Are you a lawyer? A barrister? How would I ever prove it was you? But then that’s typical of your type Ian - you just stay safely behind the anonimity of the internet and deride the concerns of others because they don’t live in your neighbourhood, agree with your elitist views or drive the right kind of car. God forbid that you have to be a bit more careful with your water - perhaps you could wash your BMW every other week. As for the money, I’m not a betting person. I don’t gamble - I’ve seen what it does to people. I don’t even buy lottery tickets. So I can’t take your bet on principle (yes Ian us lower totem dwellers do have principles). But I’m sure you’ll see that as a lack of character or cowardice. Whatever, Ian, you can think what you like - but 500% is a loose figure - it could be even higher.
Thank you Bob, for showing the true basis of the protest of this group - irrational conspiracy theories. This is why you have to pay court costs - your vexacious argument has no basis in law. I feel sorry for YWYS because you have been taken for a ride by a barrister who seems more interested in his ego than anything else. Decent legal advice should have told you that an order to pay costs was very possible. Are you suggesting you weren’t given such advice - or are you crying victim after the inevitable has happened, and crying poor with no intention of living up to your financial responsibilities?
By the way Bob - I am willing to bet a considerable sum of money (enough to give you many year’s supply of whatever is causing your paranoia) that my water bill will not rise by at least 500% in 2011 as you have guaranteed. Are you willing to bet that it will?? We can draft up a legally binding agreement if you like.
GooD on Ya BOB!
spoken like a true educated individual!
saved many of us a reply ;>) !!!!
everyone should just reply with
!!!!!DITTO!!!!!
Well Phil and Jen you two are certainly living on another planet. Since when has the Court ever been independent Phil? If you believe that then you are completely blind to the true nature of our society. Laws are formulated by Government and structured to support government not individuals, communities or the general public. Judges are bound to uphold the letter of the law not what is morally right or wrong - look at criminal law, how often are the victims rights taken into account? Do some homework, look at the history of our country and the western world in general. As for weak and irrelevant argumnets - look beyond your pig-headed myopia - the Auditor General canned the desal plant you fool. Not to mention several of the scientists advising the federal government on water policy. What you and other Melbournians obviously don’t realise is that as soon as the plant goes on line the cost of water is going to rise 5-fold - at the very minimum. Work that out on your current bill. And you don’t think the water price will rise? Do some research on contemporary economics. The whole gov-private partnership idea is based on returning money to the corporations who bankroll these projects - look at city-link’s 32 years of tolls - enough to pay for the tunnel 15 times over and then it is handed back to the government to manage with OUR taxes. At least with city-link you can go around. No such luxury with desal - once it’s in the reservoirs you pay regardless whether it rains or not. The whole desal argument isn’t just about the environment - it’s about autocracy (look up the word if you don’t know it), non-consultation and human rights (yes Human Rights - look up the UN charter of human rights which we are a signatory to and see how it applies - I’m not going to tell you because i want you to have a hand in dispelling your own pig-headed ignorance) - how are disadvantaged people like yourself going to pay for their clean water with the inevitable price rises? Not to mention all the manufactured goods using drinking water as a main constituent - softdrinks, beer etc. Do you really think those companies are going to absorb the additional water costs? You probably would think that given your rose-coloured view of the world. As for a dust-bowl LOL. There’s more than enough water being discharged at Werribee and Boag’s Rocks to drown Australia let alone Victoria several times over. You wouldn’t even have to drink the ‘toilet water’ if we recycled it. The only reason the government didn’t go with that idea is because no corporate entity would touch it because it was not going to give them a continually massive windfall every year for thirty years. Get real both of you. The ‘wonderful’ Perth desal plant that the government keeps crowing about is a toxic sewer - check the EPA stats and the scientific evidence yourself. As for you Jen it’s very clear you know bugger all about the science behind ‘global warming’, desalination, fossil fuels or the environment in general - there are opossums in Sth and Nth America - they are marsupial relatives that diverged when Australia and Sth America went their separate ways (Oh yes, once upon a time the two land-masses were joined! Fancy that!). And possums were imported to NZ and are a pest because they prey on birds eggs. As for the desal process, the intake and outflow pipes are cleaned with caustic chemicals which strip heavy metals from their surfaces. The heavy metals are then discharged into the environment with the outflow. Over-time this accumulates in the environment and causes massive dammage. The plume from these chemicals is just going to get larger and larger as the years progress until it starts impacting on penguins, seals and fish stocks. DO SOME INDEPENDENT RESEARCH don’t just watch the television ads between Today Tonight and A Curent Affair. Plant a native garden (less water required didn’t you know?) and get over your materialism - you’re part of the problem not the solution.
The Federal Court’s decision reflects the true nature of what your group is about: irrelevant and weak arguments. If there actually was a valid case against a desal. plant, I’m sure the INDEPENDENT court system would have realised that and halted or partially halted the construction of the plant (as they did with dredging). All this rubbish about a ‘dictatorship’ and ‘community voice suppression’ is alarmist and ridiculous! The courts and the government are separated; and the government has nothing to do with final verdict of the judge. Without a desal. plant, Victoria will become a dust-bowl with precious little water for anything. And then what will happen? Everyone will blame the government for not doing anything! Surprise surprise! Any other bright ideas, YWYS?
I hate water restrictions…I want to water my garden and wash my car etc., as I please, like I used to. Can YOU make it rain? (because the Labour Government are making REAL RAIN)… One small filtered and nationally irrigated road/plumber/pipeline will not damage or pollute environment! Did you know that the possum is only found and is native to Australia and is endangered of becoming extinct…?
We need desalination to save ALL LIVES (PLANTS AND CREATURES AND FARMERS)on this planet. Desalination cures the rising sea levels problem. We can help mother nature by harnessing her power and go with her flow. Desalination produces rainwater and salt not pollution or destruction. A one meter filtered Desalination irrigation concealed pipe, means no more droughts in Australia. Everyone, and every living life on the planet needs water and our ancient dams can’t supply the growing demand for water. Global temperatures are rising, each year is hotter and drier. Summer comes, (but not enough rain to dams only…
I am sorry about the Court verdict. I am totally appalled with the new dictatorship that has blanketed Victoria. Why do we have to pay costs to our employees in the government? I mean all costs, if we want a birth certificate or passport, transfer a car or house we pay taxes and all costs should be covered by our taxes. What I find even worse is they consider it their money. It is not the peoples money being held for community projects, oh no, it is their money. If we want to argue a case against them in Court they should have to supply our legal representatives. We should never have to pay twice, first in taxes and then for their costs. This is how true democracy should work, unfortunately unless we people take action we may never see even the shadow of democracy. I study the Australian Constitution and I have come to the belief that our Elected Representatives in Government do not truly and legally exist; that a very powerful club are in all important areas within our society and that is why we do not win , or put another way, nothing ever goes our way. There is a Grand Master Plan and no one can interfere. And better still, those who try to interfere will put more money into those controllers pockets, just like you will have to. Unless, and we understand the following. http://members.iimetro.com.au/~hubbca/aust_govt.htm
It was great musical reflection and protest at the Kilcunda Pub on Sunday 8th June. Many thanks to the faciliatators including of course Jill and the the songwriters and muscians. What impressive talent and sentiments have been channelled through music and song.
It would be lovely to have a copy of the words (and may be a CD) which captured so many aspects of what is wrong and what is and can be right about the way we collect and conserve water and care for our environment and our humanity.
Many thanks well done and keep singing
Ros Chandler
Hi Henry,
wouldn’t we love to have the answers to these questions…
Yes, the DSE are having studies undertaken, but because of the very limited time scale that they have allocated for these, I am not sure about the soundness of those results in regards to long term effects.
And we did go to the last DSE’s consulting session, and did ask exactly this question “How will the plant look like?”
We were told that because the project is a PPP he (DSE) wouldn’t be allowed to inform us about any of these details. The same answer was made available when we asked about the power supply.
But please feel free to contact the DSE and hopefully you will be more successful.
QUESTION: who can truely say the effect that the desalination plant will have on the environment and what studies have been taken to prove this?
Does anyone know what the overall building structure is to appear?
is it a full on concrete/brick structure or is it a few tin sheds?
Iam a 3rd generation conservationalist and wonder why is it that Australia is’nt a world leader in alternate energyu scources? We are girt by sea, have tides,wave power,solar and wind all in abundance.Why is it that European countries are leaders in these fields when their access to these natural energy scources are less accessable? A simple study of their successes is all that is needed to show our 3 levels of Gov’nt a more appropriate form of producing water. Why is it not so?
On my most recent cycling adventure today (Tue 3 June 2008), I took an unplanned detour on my ride from Anderson to Wonthaggi. To my surprise and delight, I ran into (not literally) a bunch of concerned citizens of the area “protesting” not only the proposed desal plant but, the sneaky introduction and use of good water being piped into the desal exploration area in direct contravention of the state government’s own stated promise that it would truck the water in - presumably from another “less important” water source. My support goes out to those hearty and committed souls who took the time out to express their concerns over this very contentious issue. With the permission of those present, I took some photos of the occasion and if I can work how to upload them to the YWYS website I will do so. Best wishes and go YWYS supporters. This is a good fight(BLOODY IMPORTANT FIGHT) worth fighting for!
Don Lindsay
3 June 2008
While i fully support your protest but i think the ship has sailed on the Desal plant! The government seems to have a vendetta against this particular strip of coast! Good luck with your protest! Now if only we could get somebody to chop down those ugly wind turbines at Kilcunda as well. Maybe they can be relocated along the esplanade from Port Melbourne to Brighton, around Lorne or in Portsea. There is no shortage of wind there but it is highly unlikely to happen because this is where these politicians have their residents or holiday houses!
Ian
Whether YWYS people stand for election or not is completely irrelevant. The fact that a democratically elected government is abusing their position through non-consultative, non-negotiable actions which are unsupported by most reputable economic, social and environmental organisations and agencies. By adopting the desal as the only solution the government is deliberately disadvantaging low-income, elderly and struggling people by forcing them to pay more - that, Ian, is an abuse of a basic human right.
Ian .
Have you taken part in either the current phone survey of Bass Coast residents being conducted by the Gov as part of the EES process or the recent market research “local Issues” forums at the Workmens club?
Have you spoken with the researchers/questioners?
Have you asked them what the general consensus is?
I have .
Their answers supported what I thought was true.
The people of Bass Coast think this desal plant is a poorly thought out /ill conceived idea and are VERY disappointed the Government hasn’t investigated other options to supplementing Melb’s water supply.
Because that would be a true test of your supposed support in the community, It would appear that you are not keen to have that support tested. Just saying you speak for everyone doesn’t make it so. The size of your protests would suggest you are pretty marginalised. I don’t doubt the passion of the people involved though - you just need to keep things in perspective.
Ian . Not sure why you are so adamant that an anti desal person should be running for councillor later this year. The elected BC councillors have already stated their stance, they are not happy with the way the Vic gov is treating them and their community. The CEO of BC is doing a fantastic job voicing the opinions of his employers.
Why would anyone from YWYSAGInc. waste their valuable time running for a local council election when their true target is the Victorian Government?
Yokel, keep up the conspiracy theories and the personal insults. This tactic will work wonders for your cause.
The harsh reality is that governments have the power to do things you don’t agree with - I can understand that it is frustrating, but it is a consequence of living in a system where people can have a different view to you.
By the way, can you actually explain how building a desal plant is undemocratic? Is building a hospital or school undemocratic?
And talking of democracy, if you live in the Bass Coast why don’t you run for council and show me how the vast majority of people are opposed to desal. Surely everyone will vote for your no desal position (if what you say is true). I am expecting a YWYS, or anti desal, dominated Council later this year. If there isn’t one…well, that would be embarrassing for you.
reading these posts with interest especially Ian’s highly bogus rationalisations - he’s got to be a plant. NO-ONE with ANY shred of credibility is recommending the desal plant be built. Anyone who does is either in the employ of DSE, connected at an executive level with Bass Coast Council (it’s common knowledge around Bass Coast how corrupt they are) or a politician - neither of whom have ever had any credibility ever. The fact is despite what our elected representatives dribble and the court of law? say, the government is acting as an autocracy and in doing so disregarding the democratic process that put them there. Non-consultation and implementing a “drought-proofing” option that returns the greatest dividends to corporations is tantamount to corruption. So Ian stop your bullshit rationalising, anyone with a shred of intelligence is opposed to the desal plant on environmental, economic, social and/or natural justice grounds. You’re just a corporate stooge and just a plain old wanker.
reading these posts with interest especially Ian’s highly bogus rationalisations - he’s got to be a plant. NO-ONE with ANY shred of credibility is recommending the desal plant be built. Anyone who does is either in the employ of DSE, connected at an executive level with Bass Coast Council (it’s common knowledge around Bass Coast how corrupt they are) or a politician - neither of whom have ever had any credibility ever. The fact is despite what our elected representatives dribble and the court of law? say, the government is acting as an autocracy and in doing so disregarding the democratic process that put them there. Non-consultation and implementing a “drought-proofing” option that returns the greatest dividends to corporations is tantamount to corruption. So Ian stop your bullshit rationalising, anyone with a shred of intelligence is opposed to the desal plant on environmental, economic, social and/or natural justice grounds. You’re just a corporate stooge and judst a plain old wanker.
I REJECT to the desalination plant at Wonthaggi/Kilcunda that the State Government is planning to build. Six years ago I discovered Kilcunda for the first time visiting a friend who had owned a beach house at “Killy”. I fell in love with the beautiful, scenic, natural untouched ocean line so much so I too purchased a house there. A piece of this beautiful part of Victoria!
I am extremely disappointed on the way the local governement had kept the decision to built the plant at Wonthaggi/Kilcunda absolutely quiet until it was publicly announced. There was no prior communication or consultant with the locals on how it would impact us. When I heard the news for the first time disappoint and hurt went through me.
There are other alternatives at out to solve this water issue that are so much more environmentally friendly.
The Brumby governement must take its head out of the sand and seriously look at Rudd’s 2020 summit outcomes and become more in touch!
My research into desalination plants has highlighted the high level of energy it consumes to operate contributing to the carbon emmission (which the government addressed and suppose to be reducing?!)
It’s evident and clear to me the local government has reacted to pressure from the wider Victorian community to come up with a water solution ASAP. Governement should had foreseen this years ago which indicates bad government planning has occurred.
DESAL AT WONTHAGGI/KILCUNDA IS NOT THE WAY TO GO! NO VOTE FROM ME MY FAMILY OR FRIENDS!
Is there any Bunurong involvement?
Please everyone who sees this, can you please support the community action by sending emails to members of parliament, dropping to say hello to the wonderful people at the caravan next to the site and any protest, PLEASE TURN UP. This is for our wonderful coastline, the environment and a stance against the privatization of water.
The court decision is just outrageous. I have only really recently realised the potential impacts of this plant after I picked up a brochure at Trades Hall and read it. Despite being an ALP voter all of my life I will never be voting ALP again state or federal. The Brumby government is arrogant and out of touch, they have introduced very poor legislation. Federally, they have let the Australian community down on Workchoices. This business of threatening costs applications if you dare oppose them in the courts is nothing more than bullying and should be resisted at every level.
The locals down in wonthaggi must be crazy if they think this smog plant is going to be a boom, its going to be a blight on there un spoilt enviroment, they would be better of with the wind generators that they where so up in arms about this monster the government is going a head with is 10 times more hidious than a wind turbine we need to stop this waste of public money and destructoin of our enviroment cheers
Thanks Tony. You’d be surprised by what I know about Wonthaggi.
I guess the council elections will be the key. YWYS candidates should take every ward - except for Gareth “dinosaur hunter” Barlow’s. That is, of course, if everyone is totally opposed as you say.
If YWYS candididates don’t take every ward -well, there’s your answer.
The proposal and the government’s handling of the entire process is a joke - we all know that..
Ian on December 18th, 2007 at 8:06 am
“Wonthaggi and Kilcunda will be boom towns - that’s why most locals are in favour of the desal plant.”
Ian - you are so far removed from what the locals and residents of the Bass Coast think/feel and know it is almost as ridiculous…
cheers,
if anyone is interested about the latest story of WA plant oxygen probs that was mentioned at the meeting on saturday.. …
after much searching i finally found the article. its not exactly as black & white as we might have hoped, but worth a read..
www.thewest.com.au/default.aspx?MenuID=77&ContentID=68504
dealination is ridiculous. john brumby stop stressin bout water we have had one year of really bad drought and u all of a sudden want a desal plant. at least wait a few more years and see if the drought continues. even then, desal isnt the answer. the wind turbines in wonthaggi are doing there job and creating power for the whole town and the desal will wipe out the whole point of turbines. the desal will use so much power that the turbines will be doing nothing. desal will mean more power used and more green house gases going up into the atmosphere wich will dry up the earth even more and the need for more water will be in play. and besides, if the desal is going in the beautiful coastal town of wonthaggi then the water should be going to them aswell but no the water is going to precious melbourne. y dont u put the desal on stkilda beach or sumthin like that?? brumby, have u ever taken a drive down this way around dalyston and kilcunda and looked at the view of the ocean. this whole view will be wiped out by the horrilbe lookin desal.
its a joke . this is the best coastline in the business, melbourne wants water they can find a melbourne beach to put it on instead of dropping it in the country out of the way. out of sight out of mind for brumby and his little geek friends. WAT A POOF
Thanks Paul, that’s great news. Total water security for Melbourne, with the possibility of full dams again apparently, for only $400 extra per year. I’m even more sold on the idea than I was before.
And by the way, why are you hung up on private international comapanies being awarded contracts? White cat or black cat, if it can build a desal plant, it deserves some milk and kitty litter.
JUST A REMINDER TO ALL THOSE LIVING IN MELBOURNE WHO SELFISHLY THINK THIS WILL FIX ALL THERE WATER PROBLEMS. EXPECT TO PAY $4OO DOLLARS MORE PER YEAR FOR WATER. EVEN IF OUR DAMS ARE FULL WE STILL HAVE TO PAY THIS PRIVATE INTERNATIONAL COMPANY FOR WATER AS THIS IS PART OF THE AGREEMENT WITH THE STATE. FUEL FOR THOUGHT ISNT IT WHEN YOU START TALKING ABOUT MONEY.
In reference to the desalanition plant I would like to say that you have no right to oppose this project. First of all most of the land in the last one houndred years has been deliberately cleared and almost 70% of the land is now useless farming land with no vegetation and no forest. By removing vegetation this people in East and South west Gippsland and the rest of Western Victoria, have reduced vegetation coverage by almost 80%. Most of the land after the vegetation clearance was subject to soil erosion, soil degradation and most importantly to reduced rainfall and reduced water supply for all Gippsland region. We who came recently from Europe were shocked to see the Country Victoria as now almost 100 % drought declared.
Why, because of climate change caused by over grazing and over farming. In addition Australia is very sensitive and dry continent and rainfall is possible only along the coast. THE SUN is also going through some changes, sun stormes, sun spots can also cause increased temperatures and increased evaporation from the ground. The grund with no vegation could lose the moisture more rapidly and that is a reason why most of this land is very very dry.
Removal of vegatation have caused a temperature rise, a soil erosion and reduced water supply for all Victoria.
Some cities and countries they rely on desalination as only source to provide water-Dubai etc.
Clean and environmentaly friendly plant with no emissions of pollutants into the environment is possible. Also other renewable and clean energy sources should be introduced such as the wind farms to provide energy for this desalanitation plants around Victoria. Victoria needs at least two more desalinations plants one near Geelong and one near Portland for Murray Darling Basin.
With increased water supply whole Victoria’s farm land, which is now dry and cover alomst 2/3 of the territory, could be changed and transformed like in Bahrein and Dubai, from useless grazing land into the land covered with trees, vegetation, fruits, vegetable, plants etc and in some areas only one third of the whole Victorian teritory should be allowed for farming and grazing. Victoria could became a mjaor source of food for Australia.
Forestry industry as the major source and cause of the climate change should be allowed only on the private plantations. All remaining ranforests should be protected under World Heritage Organisation as the major source of clean and fresh water.
Not only this plant must and should be allowed in Bass Coast Shire, the second and third project should follow.
This desalination should be surrounded by native trees, no all toxic hemicals should be treated and there is no impact on the environment.
Prediction: Your legal challenge will be even less successful the Blue Wedge’s was. It smells of desparation, and you are feeding the ego of lawyers who are seeking to make a name for themselves. Remember, the court will be even less interested in your emotional arguments than than Brumby is. And also remember, the government has the power to do things you don’t agree with. Your best bet would be to run anti desal candidates in all wards at the council elections.
The desalination plant is a ludicrous proposition in the current climate, particularly when so little had yet been done to conserve water.
Reminds me strongly of the Kennett Government - with a total lack of regard for sound, informed public opinion and no real community consultation. Will this eco-terrorism happen before this Government’s downfall?
No, I am just a Melbourne resident who is keen on some more water security, and delivered in a timely and realistic way.
I have actually stayed at the Kilcunda caravan park many times, and I do like the area a lot. I agree it is a shame this is necessary, but I don’t think the effects will be as bad as your group states (just like the bay dredging hasn’t caused the end of the world - despite the rhetoric of another group), and the benefits will outweigh the costs. But yes, there will of course be costs - there always are.
Ian -are you employed by the DSE?????
Fair enough Bec, but keep in mind that while the area is spectacular, you will not be able to see the plant from the beach. In fact, you wouldn’t even know it was there. Yes, you may see a bit of it as you are driving toward Wonthaggi, but Wonthaggi is no oil painting…it will fit in ok. The plant may be obtrusive if you are flying around in a helicopter, but from ground level it will be business as usual in the Bass Coast.
Also Bec, keep in mind the area the plant will be built on is degraded farm land - it is already ruined. It’s not pristine coastland, or heritage listed wilderness as some would have you believe. I suppose a few cows will need to find a new home, but without the plant Melnbourne is ruined.
G’day!
I’m 16 years old and I live in Melbourne and I believe that the idea for a Desalination Plant is bullshit! Sure, I’ve never been to the proposed sight of the plant but I’ve read the articles and seent he videos and the area looks absolutley beautiful. Why ruin such a beautiful area of coastline with something that in the long run will not really help our country at all. There are so many other options… Desal is crap, it will destroy the environment and make our water problems so much worse. My year 12 speech is coming up and I’ve decided that I will be talking about this issue and I am completley against it! NO DESAL PLANT!!!
Cheers Bec MAws
No hillbilly liam, you collect rainwater off of your roof, as do I. It is great if you live in a house with a big roof, have space for a big tank, and have the money for it all (including plumbing it to your house). And of course, it needs to rain.
However, stormwater is collected out of stormwater drains…somehow, and stored…somewhere, and treated, and transported somewhere else…somehow. It would be great if we had all the money and time in the world, and didn’t need to use roads and that would be construction sites while the city is retrofitted. And of course, it needs to rain…
I collect stormwater off my house roof and store it in a tank in my backyard. It’s not that hard. The small amount of rain in March has seen my tank go down a bit but next time we have heavy rain( and we will) it will fill again….”Every drop counts”
Yes, I agree that Melbourne should be capturing all of this stormwater we have had in March so far - 1.4mm - it might even be enough to flush a toilet. I’m not sure how we would retrofit the whole city in order to capture and divert it - and I’m not sure where we could store it. Are there any spare 500GL reservoirs in the metro area that I’m not aware of? I’m not sure how we would then get the treated stormwater to where it could be used - more retrofitting of the city I suppose. You’re right, this is a simple, cost effective solution.
Still, it’s a bit saner than your Tasmanian pipe scam. Every time you support that your credibilty erodes further.
I am formally rejecting the need for a desalination plant that the State Government is planning to erect. The average citizen has been passionally committed to saving water, as recently acknowledged by our own state parliamentarians, reported saying so in the media. So they want to “reward” citizens by giving them a desalination plant which will use lots of energy (energy which is not finite and becoming increasingly expensive), contributing to the carbon emmissions (isn’t the government suppose to be reducing this?) polluting our waters even more than they already are and at what cost?. It would be cheaper to hand out water tanks or offer some incentives to citizens which relate to water conservation. This current State Government has a habit of addressing issues by building things in the mistaken belief that they improve services, i.e. building big flash hospitals while closing others down - they call this progress! Its the same with this plant, another useless building that will cause more problems than it solves. I do hope you are successful in your attempts at getting this project stopped. I shall attempt to write to my local, state and federal governments expressing my concerns regarding this plant. Good luck.
Dear Sirs,
Your quotation from John F. Kennedy may also apply to the Victorian Government. it seems to me that the real problem is a lack of information as indicated in your correspondence and moreover the correspondence of all other local government authorities seeking to advocate on behalf of concerned citizens about the water plan.
We are now stuck with political parties of all political pursuasion that happily advocate many “shades” of privatisation. After all, successive elections over the previous decades have seen a majority of citizens vote for privatisation philosophy. And at the heart of running corporations is ’secrecy in decison making’ so that the return on shareholder investment is maximised; not necessarily in the public interest or as a famous philosopher Adam Smith in his book ‘Wealth of Nations,’ stated, “… the profits which can be made by employing them necessarily diminish. it becomes gradually more and more difficult to find within the country a profitable means of employing new capital. there arises in consequence a competition between different capitals, the owner of one endeavouring to get possession of that employment which is occupied by another.” end quote
By adopting and voting for governments who have sold the public assets, and because we have accepted the propaganda that ‘being private’ is immeasurably better than ‘public ownership,’ we are saddled with a lack knowledge and greater detailed information that deserves to be in the public interest, ie., transparency. We now have a classic example of “corporatised democracy” where even shareholders are shielded from all the facts. The accountability of our members of parliament is shielded by the ubiquitous phrase, “commercial in confidence.” And as a community we only have each other to blame. You only need to examine the problem with petrol/diesel oil and so on.
As I understand the system, local overnment is elected to take care of local issues like town planning and infrastructure, roads etc. Council has no constitutional power to make laws (rejected by a majority of votes in a national referendum held in the latter part of the 1980s). However, as advocates for concerned ratepayers and citizens, council can surely use its “in house” resources to establish a posible positive or negative position concerning the ‘water plan.’ Even if all interested councils combined, there must be enough resources to establish evidence which can hold the Victorian Governments policy to account. And if the Victorian government has erred on this issue, then we as concerned people need to take cognisance of any proven evidence.
We elect our Councillors to make decisions correctly in accordance with the laws of Victoria. we also elect our State Member of Parliament to do what is best for all Victorians as is the case with our Federal Member of Parliament to do the best for all Australians; hopefully making good equitable laws and decisions for all of us.
But privatisation policies and equity seem to be on collision points. And today, as for billions of years past, life exists on ‘planet earth’ where in particular the scientific human beings have established that we are experiencing massive climate change. And as the icebergs slowly melt, water politics across all of Australia will become more acute. Even as the rising sea affects people living on the coast, including the proposed desalination plant.
If the opponents of the current Australian/Victorian/water plan are right in their reasoning, then the billions of dollars invested may be a massive loss to the people’s assets. But if the Victorian Government is correct in its reasoning, then these investments may see a massive injection of water certainty, providing certainty to farmers for more efficient primary production and food certainty for Melbournians and about millions of Victorians across the greater region. After all, I suspect that much of our propert values, in regional Victoria, are inter-connected to the Melbourne metropolis.
Sincerely
Ralf Kluin
We had an AWTS (aerated waste treatment system) in Tasmania. Every drop of water, and I mean EVERY drop, used within the house was processed and went on to our garden via a zoned irrigation system with drippers. It was capable of treating waste for 15 occupants. Why don’t authorities make very new subdivision have these sorts of systems to all allotments rather than extending huge sewer infrastructures which cost a lot abd don’t make use of the treated water? The current cost of each unit is about $6,000. What does it cost to sewer each new residential site? John Henshaw
Surely the more satisfactory answer would be for each building to have the appropriate size water storage tanks to catch the storm/Rain water that is currently wasted. If it works in rural Australia it should surely work in Urban and the cities. Perhaps it would be cheaper to provide a larger grant for existing property owners and make it part of building permits that Water tanks be mandatory in new homes.
Also the use and storage of grey water for garden use. For town houses where they do not have a need for grey water use then the water could be collected for use on agricultural land.
Dear Mr Ian,
I am from generation Y and would like to speak for ALL of my friends and aqu Mr. Ian,
I am from generation Y and would like to speak for ALL of my friends and acquaintances in saying that this abomination will RUIN all our coast and future, if you open your eyes and look you will see that its not “the majority” that are opposed against the Desel, ITS EVERYONE! Considering that it will be left to gen. Y to run it shouldn’t you actually ask some of our opinions as well?
Keep going YWYS! We are behind you!
Keep up the great work YWYS action group and friends!
The desalination is going to be a eye sore along our beatiful coast line, but what about the scare across our farm land, where they are going to run there pipeline so it gets to Melbourne, then the pile longs that will bring the power to the plant, will take the beauty of our farm land away, and has anybody thorught about how it is afecting the way the locals can farm, and the value of there farms. With drought what else do the need?
Desalination is not the way to solve this water problem. Other than the ennormous cost and waste, this plant will destroy our precious coastline. This beautiful coastline is known to many people as their holiday place but it is going to be turned into a restricted area where we can no longer come and enjoy the awesome non-commercialised beaches! I think we should slow down and take a look at what we are really doing and find a safer, more efficient way that has less impact on our environment.
Water vapour most abundant greenhouse gas but not significantly anthropogenic
Quote from Dr P Fraser (CSIRO)
“Steam emitted by power stations doesn’t add anything significant to the world’s greenhouse problems. Natural rainfall and evaporation are so large, that relatively small amounts of water vapour from car exhaust pipes or cooling towers aren’t important.
However, water vapour dramatically amplifies warming induced by all greenhouse gases, natural or man made.”
I don’t understand your point at all, Rick, and I certainly don’t see the connection, however if you did a little preliminary research prior to posting your ideas you might find that water vapour is in fact a major contributer to greenhouse emissions as discussed in the Sydney Morning Herald: “Water vapour magnifies greenhouse warming by a factor of two to three”, and in Wikipedia: “The major greenhouse gases are water vapor, which causes about 36–70% of the greenhouse effect on Earth”.
Everyone is on about Climate Change, fair enough if there is any evidence apart from cyclic weather patterns.
The biggest culprit is blamed on our Brown Coal fired Power stations, they are evil!!!
Or are they?
Whenever the media shows images of these polluting power stations, all I see being emitted from the dirty power stations into the atmosphere is the chemical compound of H2O (water).
The images are always of steam being emitted from cooling towers, not from chimney stacks.
The chimney stacks are what is producing harmful CO2, not the cooling towers.
How is H2O harmful to the environment?
Every time I drive through “the valley”, the only dirty emmissions I see, come frome the bricquette factory, not from the Power Stations.
Wonthaggi only had water restrictions because of Westernport Waters management of their resources, so Wonthaggi had to share their water, therefore any restrictions that were imposed, was not a direct result of the drought in Wonthaggi.
Nothing is ever fixed by using the same thinking that created the problem in the first place! I cannot believe that we are still resorting to solutions for water consumption that detriment the environment!!!!! WAKE UP!!!! This is exactly the reason that we have water issues in the first place. We need to look at utilizing our environmental resources in a holistic and responsible manner, rather than this catastrophic desalination plant.
YES!!!!!
Justin Madden just gave us a xmas present an EES YES!!!!
Well done everyone!!!
imagine the social disruption if we don’t have ample water to serve industry, us and other in ten years.
Why would anyone want Wonthaggi and Kilcunda to become boomtowns for the 3 years of construction??
Gillette Syndrome is a term used to describe the social disruption that can occur in a community due to rapid population growth. Such disruptions usually include increased crime, degraded mental health, weakened social and community bonds, abnormally high costs of living, and other social problems.
The term is usually applied to boomtowns that are growing rapidly due to nearby natural resource extraction, such as coal mining or natural gas drilling.
source ; Wikipedia
YWYS
You have put a lot of work into your response to the EES referral. However, I don’t understand why you are so concerned about fossils on the beach 40-50 metres below the surface. I don’t think anyone will be digging them up anytime soon - especially as their hole will be full of water!
And was your group responsible for making the “secret” site public for political reasons (or was it Cr Barlow)? Now vandals and souvenir hunters are your biggest concern - not the desal plant.
George
Wonthaggi and Kilcunda will be boom towns - that’s why most locals are in favour of the desal plant. That’s why YWYS has zero traction - only Greens and conspiracy theorists are interested.
Everyone knows the penguins won’t starve to death - they didn’t when the Bass Straight’s pilchard population was almost wiped out by a virus in the 1990s.
And by the way, there is nothing wrong with mowing lawns and cleaning toilets, or other maintenance jobs that the plant will create.
The wind turbines take up a very small piece of land. Most people see them as a good thing that is helping cut down on our use of polluting brown coal. The desalination plant complex will be at least 40 Ha in size and up to 18 metres tall.It will have many,many trucks carrying chemicals and waste coming to and from it each day.
The plan is to build it in 3 years working around the clock. There will be some jobs for local construction companies in this time but after that it will be largely employing experts who know how to run a desal plant.There might be lawnmowing or toilet cleaning jobs for locals but not much else.
Can’t imagine the same amount of people sitting at the Killy pub weekends still being there watching trucks rumble past. Or the amount of international visitors coming to Bass Coast Shire if the penguins starved to death because the desal plant sucked up all the anchovy larvae.
Georgr: The tourists will still come just look at the dubi desalination plant the tourists will not no it is there just like the wind mills !!, how long have they been ther for
when i say more jobs i meen for the local community ( more jobs = more Money ! )
Hayden: yes, it means more jobs but mainly for people overseas. How does it make more money for the community? Won’t less tourists come to our area because of the desal plant?
i am for a desalination plant in wonthaggi, it will be a grate thing it meens more jobs & money for the community.
Dear Dominic,
the reason why this editor does not edit articles or reports too much is that she would like to present them in their original state. But I do try to make an effort, not always and not always well, to comment.
It would be nice if people were coming to their own conclusions.
But I am always grateful for advice and suggestions.
Thank you.
I think it’s not wise to have direct web-links to the articles coming out of IPA (Institute of Public Affairs - Alan Moran & co)
It’s convenient that Alan M. reaches the same conclusion as YWYS committee but it is very important that his method for getting to his conclusion is ecologically unsound, to say the least.
An editor (of a website such as this very good site) needs to summarize the most appropriate quotes/conclusions.
Alan Moran’s best attribute is that he provides comic relief - he’s like the crazy warehouse guy of neo-con commentators.
The DSE information office in Wonthaggi has both hard and cd-rom copies of the referral documents to give to members of the public. The project manager Gary Seabourne will be in attendance at the office Sunday mornings from 8:30 am.
If anyone is looking for the EES referral documentation you can find it here:
http://www.dse.vic.gov.au/DSE/nrenpl.nsf/LinkView/14A6A41D36FC30A5CA2572F0001561BB996C31703737EE77CA2572DA007FBB97
Why has the government Media release given out thew wrong email address to view the referral. After contacting Luke Enright he was unable to suggest nor provide a correct address. Additionally the Age Newspaper photo was grossly inaccurate , the scale of the plant was shown 1/4 real size or less.
Who is responsible for the dis-information?
I thought all the desal plants in the world were built in industrial areas. The picture in The Age looks like it is farmland & there were no factories anywhere near. Is this true?
Build the desal plant!!!!!!!!! it is going to happen and the world will continue get over it. The state goverment stuffed up and we all worried about climate change to late. Carbon offset the greenhouse emissions which are not directly caused by the desal but by energy produced from coal fired plants and let’s drink to our success.
to whoever may be cocern,
i think that victoria should have a vote like the election to stop desalination get 13 years and over to vote and add the results i think the desal wouldnt come in then because a lot of people dont like it and whats the cost? if it does come in the water bills mite go higher mybe higher each year no one would like that.
p.s. Why dont you have a T.V. and radio adds thats saying the water bills will go up and no one wonts that and what will it cost to use a lot of money so we cant pay our house bills and other thing or we going to live in the streets
To who may be concern,
Why dont you get people who dont wont to have the desalination plant to sit there so it cant be bilt, bring food so we/they dont starve, when we start running out of food get people to bye more food so we can stay longer but sonner or later if we dont do anything there probley be a new desalination plant.
James, I was replying to Kerryn’s comment on their dream of letting an environmental body have power over industry in general, not about a pipe from china. I am simply saying that companies will adapt, but overseas where they aren’t limited or are limited less by an environmental body.
Force them to change too much and it’s goodbye to alot more aussie made stuff, aussie jobs and consumer spending. It will effect the whole economy.
You can see my views on the de-sal plant in my previous posts.
Well, the people at Binningup are slightly more dishonest than you guys are. They are suggesting that the refinery NEXT TO the Perth desal plant will be part of the Binningup plant. Total, histerical, dishonest rubbish. I commend your water your say for not stooping quite so low…although you guys do put out some nonsense.
I’m a bit confused Michael & Brian…aren’t we talking about a desalination plant that will supply water only to the Melbourne Metro area? There are no plans for it to supply farming regions of the State and certainly no plans for the Melbourne dams(Thompson,Cardinia,Maroondah,Silvan,Sugarloaf, etc) to supply farmers with water.
As for talking about taking industry to China…it would take a pretty long bloody pipe to send the water back to Melbourne!
Great call Brian,
But no matter what happens someone won’t be happy.
Quote Kerryn
“Imagine if the EPA or like government body became a force in controlling free enterprise instead of the reverse. If the government put its money into the long term protection of our planet and country and Free Entereprise was forced to adapt. There is no doubt that the will to make money will always adapt to the rules and find a way to capitalise.”
Would be good and all but thats just asking for more manufacturing to go overseas, like the tarriff reductions on imports has already done.
There’s more to reducing greenhouse gases than just making companies do it. Most manufactuirng plants would simply close up and move to china or the likes if they were forced to make millions of dollars of change to their proccesses. Where are all the people going to work when this happens? In China, I don’t think so. If one plant closes down here because it was forced to reduce emmissions and couldn’t afford it, do you not think they will re-open somewhere else and start producing greenhouse gasses again.
Having an environmental body with power over manufacturing or industry is a dangerour road to travel.
I can’t really understand why so many locals are opposed to the water plant (other than misconceived notions of reduced property values, but then a lot of locals were opposed to wind generators for just that reason).
I realise it’s a beautiful part of the world (I was born in Sth Gippsland, and am a former Kilcunda land owner) but research shows that desalination is not a hugely polluting industry relative to the oil and steel and allied industries.
I have just completed a project which took me to farming areas in Victoria, Sth Australia, Western Australia, Queensland, Tasmania and N.S.W. and believe me, the future with no water is extremely bleak, we run a real risk of not being able to feed ourselves let alone export food. Our water will have to come from somewhere, if the Gippsland water plant supplies Melbourne and it’s regional surrounds, it takes pressure off other water supplies for food production purposes.
If the arguement is purely about power sources for the plant, then why aren’t the protests directed at changing the energy source instead of against the water plant, we have enough potential sources to power such a plant, wave energy, geothermal, wind, and solar or a combination of them will eventually replace coal fired generators.
I suspect however, that most of the protests are not really concerned with any of the above, more against development per se.
Geoff, the reason so many comments are concerned about the greenhouse gas aspect of Desalination in Victoria is the simple reason - 98% of electrical power generated in Victoria (Energy in Australia 2006) is produced from carbon non-renewable sources. I have read the Our Water site from the Government . I have also spoken at length with the representatives from DSE including project manager Gary Seaborne. What they neglect to say is where are they buying all this renewable energy from.
The Government will not commit to cutting emissions because it knows it can’t have energy guzzling projects such as this and meet targets of reduction.
If we had the estimated 750 wind turbines in place to power the plant ,then the greenhouse argument would be a furphy. Until this happens the Greenhouse argument is very,very real.
I wonder why so many comments on your site are wrongly concerned with greenhouse gasses from the desal plant. After some quick research at the Our Water site I found this statement in a prominent position:
“The plant is estimated to use about 90 mega watts (MW) of power, which will be purchased from renewable energy sources.”
Have a look, please get the facts right - http://www.ourwater.vic.gov.au/ourwater/governments_water_plan/desalination_plant
By all means let’s look at other water solutions too, but greenhouse gasses from this project is a furphy.
Dear Shaun, just a short response to your well informed comments. Your first paragraph is exactly the main reason we are opposed to the desalination plant. Global warming should be terrifying all of us. The State Governments proposed desalination plant is going to increase Victoria’s electricity consumption, and therefore its greenhouse gas emissions, by almost two per cent. That is the governments figures, not ours. At a time when scientists and governments worldwide, including our own, are telling us we need to reduce greenhouse gases, here we are building something that is going to increase emissions by a significant amount. We would need to take about 280000 cars off the road permanently to offset the emissions this plant will use each year. Not only is our actual increase in emissions of concern, but also our credibility world wide. How can we expect developing countries in Asia, South America etc.to stop cutting down rainforests, or countries like China to curb the greenhouse emissions caused by their industrial proliferation, when we, one of the most affluent countries in the world, in a city situated in one of the wettest cornets of the country, cannot manage our water without resorting to an energy consuming desalination plant before at least considering other alternatives.
Regarding your comment about Bendigo’s water being at 8%, I don’t believe the Government has given any undertaking for this water to go anywhere except Melbourne. By adding to global warming by increasing greenhouse gases the desalination plant will presumably add to all regional Victoria’s water woes.
Our answer is not nothing. We have never suggested that Melbourne does not need water, and believe that steps should be taken to prevent repetition of this years water crisis. The Government is spending $3100000000 (unless they’ve got a firm quote already I don’t know how they arrived at that figure)on the plant. For this money, plus the $500000000 reputed to run the plant each year, we believe the government could safeguard our supplies through recycling, water tanks, reducing wastage and exploring other alternatives.
Regarding your comments about the makeup of our group, I find that one of the heartening things about this campaign has been the amalgamation of diverse members of the community, mostly comprised of housewives, who are obviously concerned about the future of their children and grandchildren, teachers, builders, aged pensioners, doctors, nurses, vets, police, unemployed - we have just about everybody except an out of work lobbyist or professional protesters.
Regarding your comments about employment prospects for Wonthaggi citizens - the Government originally told us that the plant would employ about 20 people, but have recently upped that figure to 50 or 60. Unfortunately I don’t think many of our single parents and long term unemployed have much experience in desalination plants and their job prospects are not looking greatly improved.
We are concerned about Melbournians, most of us have lived in Melbourne at some stage, our children go to university or work in Melbourne, we have relatives and friends in Melbourne. Some of us live in the country, but we are not a different race. (I say “we”, but I should point out that many of our supporters and members live in Melbourne). This desalination plant is a kneejerk “quickfix” which is going to contribute to the very factors which may be creating the problem in the first place. The plant is going to adversely affect local people more that most, but in the long run all of us will lose by it, including those 4000000.
It’s pretty simple really. If any of you have read the book ‘we are the weathermakers’, you are well aware, that if we keep contributing to greenhouse gases the way we are there will not be an earth to worry about, let alone enough water. To save the future of our earth as we know it, we need to reduce the use of energy not increase it. This is a change of mindset, using less, buying less and recycled products and recycling wherever you can, thousands of litres of unrecycled water go down the drain every day.
This is what is takes to reverse climate change, not bandaid solutions that can make it worse in the long run. This requires harder and innovative decisions about changing our industries and reinventing our way of life and getting much needed support from the government to change our building and industry regulations. (there is not even a tank in every home yet.)
We recently went to an energy and water efficiency expo, there were lots of ways that the average householder could save their water usage. This is all extra effort, but when i consider my childrens future, i think the effort is worth it!
You pack of idiots. Water is what keeps everyone alive and for better or worse we are going to need it. Global warming has changed everything. Bendigo has only 8% water now. Melbourne’s water is 30%. We will not have enough next summer based on current rain falls.
So what is your answer? Nothing
Why? Because behind the scenes the people behind a professional protesters or better known as out of work lobbyist.
For people who live at Wonthaggi once the place is built locals may have an chance of earning income besides new start and single parenting payments. Imagine that…!
Luckily for us the new bread of Labor in Victoria just not dance with special interest groups or minorities. They learnt the harsh lesson from last Labor government.
So in summery instead of being self serving, self righteous and seriously risking the future of all Victorians please go and get a life that does not interfere with 4 million lives in this state
I hate the governments underhanded reactionary response. It’s like they are trying to please a spoilt child.
What real hardship has suburban Melbourne had to go through? What appropriate changes have been forced on the individual for long term lifestyle change. The scary trend for a lot of the suburban population for perfect room temperature in their super-sized houses, without smart use of design to suite position (”lets fill up the block love, and then concrete the rest”), or even external awnings, decidious trees or cross-ventalation. Why does the government not try to break the dependence on waste and excess and glutinous use of resouces for the sake of inappropriate gardens, green lawn and fully air-conditioned ridiculous resort size houses. What if they set a reasonable limit of how much energy/water could be used per person,or per house, or per circumstance?
This is probably not the correct forum, but here is my latest little daydream.
What if the federal government implemented ground breaking change to industry in general. What if there was industry standards developed for best environmental practices for all industries. Imagine if the EPA or like government body became a force in controlling free enterprise instead of the reverse. If the government put its money into the long term protection of our planet and country and Free Entereprise was forced to adapt. There is no doubt that the will to make money will always adapt to the rules and find a way to capitalise.
As consumers we could easily be aware at point of purchase of what is an endorsed choice. Even a rating system, with a 5 year deadline for all products to be evaluated. Perhaps of stars similar to white goods that indicated green house emissions, water economy and maybe even Australia Product content, in terms of the manufacture, presentation and delivery of the product to the retail outlet. Imagine even the retail outlet was evaluated in terms of their own use of disposable waste, recycling and purchasing smart-packed products.
The company’s and businesses do not neccesarily, initally be legally required to comply to standards, but are legally required to label their products/premises with their ratings.
Again I know this is not the correct forum for my little daydream, but still….I feel, the basic person (me?..probably) doesn’t have time or even want to think about ‘all that’, it’s all price, value for money and covenience. However if these ratings were in their face and the government was saying “you should know this”, wouldn’t the average joe start caring too????? Who knows.
Matt… it will always be a matter of importance ‘WHERE’ rain falls not just ‘WHEN’. Building a desalination plant won’t change this.
The crop & sheep farmers of western Victoria and the beef & dairy farmers of southern Victoria farm on unirrigated land. They will always have to rely 100 percent on rainfall landing on their properties to grow these vital foodstuffs.
Water from the plant proposed for Victoria is purely for Melbournes urban use.No amount of desal plants would ever deliver enough water to irrigate the lower half of the state let alone that above the Divide.
This precious rain would become even more infrequent/sporadic as the desal plant causes more greenhouse gases to be emitted.
The Vic Govt says it will be carbon neutral but ask the DSE overseeing the proposal and they say. “We haven’t worked that out yet” .As they haven’t worked out the 100’s of other questions put to them.
Like Gemma Said
“What a great idea NOT - let fresh storm water pass through our drains into the ocean only to collect hundreds of kilometers away, desalinate it and then pump it back. It’s ludicrous.”
How about instead of pumping it into the ocean in the first place, they treat it like has been mentioned time and time again, but instead of using it for drinking water, pump it into the river system where it can be much more useful for irrigators, towns and cities, possibly utilised better as a backup water supply for resevoirs as it already is. The treated water will mix with the river water, aid in reducing river water salinity, and provde water for farmers, citrus growers and towns and cities near the river system, and also improve the flow of the Murray with is a major concern already.
Do you people know what this would do for us?! We cannot wait any longer and cannot rely on anymore short-term fixes! To rely on the catchments would mean it would have to rain in the right place for us to even store water! With a desalination plant, it won’t matter WHERE it rains, just WHEN!
The water restrictions are ridiculously soft and are not working. Not everyone is abiding by them! They are wasting water and not giving a damn because, “they pay for it; they can do what they want!”
Don’t forget that the water storage has been getting lower and lower every year. We all have to start thinking what might happen if rain water DOESN’T make it into the catchments; and if people DON’T follow the water restrictions. Our children may have to put up with worse water shortages and sricter rules & regulations than we are now. Do we want that for our future generations?
As a Kilcunda resident for many years and a nature lover I could not believe it when I heard of this proposal…Having only returned on saturday from 6month travel and work around Cape York and Nth Qld…
- like may others am in disbelief at this decision on so many levels…
What a great idea NOT - let fresh storm water pass through our drains into the ocean only to collect hundreds of kilometers away, desalinate it and then pump it back. It’s ludicrous.
Are we at this stage yet?
Are metropolitan areas the Mordor & Isengard ?
Is the forest of Middle Earth symbolic of our natural environment?
Do we need to destroy them for the sake of progress and growth ?
Taken from Lord of the Rings- The Two Towers.
The tower of Orthanc stands amidst the smoking caverns of Isengard. Saruman stands in his chamber, communicating with the Dark Lord through the Palantír. Who now has the strength to stand against the armies of Isengard and Mordor? To stand against the might of Sauron and Saruman and the union of the two towers?’
Saruman (V.O.): ‘The world is changing.
Camera pans upwards along the height of the tower of Barad-dûr until the flaming Eye is in view
Saruman (V.O.): ‘Together, my lord Sauron, we shall rule this Middle-earth.’
The trees around Isengard are being ripped down, chopped up and used to feed huge furnaces. The caverns of Isengard glow with the fires of industry, sounds of hammering fill the air and molten iron is poured into casts to forge weapons.
Saruman (V.O.): ‘The old world will burn in the fires of industry. The forests will fall. A new order will rise. We will drive the machine of war with the sword and the spear and the iron fists of the Orc. We have only to remove those who oppose us.’
The trouble is that the desal plant is to be built soon and will no doubt be driven by coal. If we could wait until tide power and solar thermal chimneys were up and running and were the guaranteed source of power then yes a lot more people would be satisfied. Until then we should not be satisfied.
We NEED desalination, sorry, but we just do.
There are good and bad ways of going about it, and neither member of the Labor-Liberal Coalition can be trusted to implement it safely I agree.
That doesn’t change the fact we need it, as does a good portion of the world.
Storm water recycling and normal recycling are not sufficient on their own and never will be, we need augmentation from desalination.
Yes the outlets need to be carefully chosen, Yes the salt extraction needs to be managed - this is all given.
What is not given is where, how it’s powered and when.
And don’t start up about coal vs. wind-power for powering it. Coal is out (though it will never run out, just nobody is looking at carbon recapture seriously), and wind-power was never that viable, its just too weak. TIDE POWER, and SOLAR THERMAL CHIMNEYS however are not weak and could easily drive desal plants and more!!
I attended the meeting at the Wonthaggi community centre where the 4 invited speakers had their say . I thought that a lot of what was said was preaching to the converted whereas what we really needed at the time was to present the government with good practicle ideas to support our claim that the desal plant is a last resort. Mary Crook in her letter suggested amongst other things that retrofitting of houses to allow for the use of tank or recycled water was a worthwhile concept . I have no doubt that she is correct . However , will there be enough plumbers to instal the neccessary infrastructure to allow for the use of tank or recycled water throughout the millions of households in Melbourne ? Will there be enough tanks available in a given time to make a meaningful difference to water consumption?
I would suggest that, given it will take until the end of 2011 to get any water from the desal plant ,if it goes ahead , the government will have to make some tough decisions about the ridiculous amount of water consumed both domestically and commercially . This is something they seem loathed to do at present except for the setting of graded water restrictions so as to prevent the washing of driveways ! No restrictions are made on individual household consumption even though we have the meters outside which could allow for water allocation on a population per household basis to be set and policed .
I would suggest that the only way to teach the community to save water in the short term whilst we all rethink our consumption habits , is to charge more for each litre of water we use . At present we are charge a hefty service fee of approx $90 for water and $112 for waste water 3 times a year and on top of that a meagre 88 cents per thousand litres consumed, ( Sth Gippsland water prices 2007 ).This means that if I use approx 20000 litres of water in a 4 month period I will be charged about $220 whereas if I use 5 times that amount I will be charged about $290. A differnce of only $70.
I would propose that the service charges are reduced dramatically whilst the charge per litre consumed is increased . Therefore those households and industries who strive to use less water have the opportunity to reduce their costs as an incentive ,as apposed to the high users who would incur a more realistic penalty . The overall income to the water authorities should be calculated to be the same . This could certainly encourage those that take long showers to think again. It may also buy us time to convince the government that we can in fact be water conscious.
You’re right, something needs to be done, but I don’t see any plans for a desaination plant to help the farmers either. Seems as if only the cities interests are considered here.
No need to envisage whats going to happen with the farming industry it’s already feeling the drought, and they aren’t going to be out of the woods until they clear up the 1,000,000 dolar debts alot of them have aquired from buying food and water (I know 1 farmer who spent 600,000 on feed in one year). If you extend this north it gets worse. Sure they aren’t in a drought now but I bet they are in debt from it and will be for generarations.
Again it’s not a simple matter of everyone putting in a tank, I live in Leongatha township and theres no-way I’d be able to install a 90,000 litre tank, and alot of people are in the same boat. As you say a tiny 500 litre jobs won’t even help. I do other things for the environment, ie paying a bit more for my power wich is entirely from renewable sources.
I would love to see a national pipeline that guarantees us(households) and industry (food manufacturers etc) a supply of usable water in 20 years. Population will continue to grow, and such so does our water supply need to. Start to limit industry’s usage and it effects more than just that industry, jobs can be lost and in turn comsumer spending drop etc etc.
I am not for or against this plant, but something has to be done to ensure our children and there children have water.
PS Our tank is full and overflowing.
Well Michael … my family relies completely on tank water.Our tank is 90,000 litres, not the tiny 500 litre jobs people seem to think will supply their whole house and garden. I don’t know where you live but our tank has received enough rainfall not to be emptied in the past 22 years.The past 3- 4 years have seen it become very low but with careful management and being responsible for our own water use ,we have not had to supplement it from reticulated supplies. Our house is a modest 15 squares.. very below average by today’s building standards.
Can I ask what you envisage will happen to our farming industry, our rivers & streams, and our general natural environment which relies 100 per cent on the rain falling from the sky when as you predict it’s not going to rain?
Is Victoria going to be criss-crossed by 10,000s km of pipes feeding water from the desal plants located all along coastal Victoria ?
By building this monster desal plant the Govt is adding even more of the damaging CO2 to the atmosphere which is causing the vagrancies in our weather.Better to be pro- active and use the water we now have more wisely and not just follow the world wide trend of affluent nations to rape and pillage the envirnoment by building desal plants.
Something has to be done about our water issue, Dams are good and all but what about in 30 years when we hit another drought, if it doesn’t rain the dams can’t fill. With population growth, infastructure has to grow. We live in a dry country and sometimes it isn’t as simple as building a dam,(dams have a huge environmental impact too) or making the catchment bigger. Where is all the toxic sludge going to go from the cleanout of resevoirs to make them bigger. Someone will complain about that no doubt.
No matter where this plant was put, someone will complain. Sure we all mightn’t be connected to the main line, but atleast if it doesn’t rain for a long time there will be water available.
Like I said if it doesnt rain, there is no water for the tanks, dams, etc etc. No use having a tank if it doesn’t rain for 6 months out of the year, like the previous 3-4 years, even longer.
What about getting people to write “No desal” on their ballot paper for upcoming federal election.
Cheers John
The Town Hall event last nite was so damn good . So much local talent & care for our future …
I think we need a section on economics of water (and how much cheaper recycling and efficiency is compared to desal) , plus a “watch in brief” on big donations from desal corp’s & banks to Labour & Liberal Parties.
Here is a starter taken from my submission to BCS (just before they changed their view)
Re Proposed Water Desaliantion Industrial Complex in Bass Coast Shire
On a wide range of grounds (listed below in point form under five categories) we are opposed to the concept and construction of the proposed desalination factory & the proposed continuance of the Statewide inter-catchment water grid, and ask that the actions listed at bottom will be taken ASAP by the Council & CEO.
1. Economic Analysis
● Most national & international reports on water security have placed desalination as a last resort after improved onsite collection, resuse and recycling have been fully exploited. Even the State Government appointed desal project manager has stated this point ! Refer: Leongatha Star article & The Age article “Mr Seaborne who is director of the Department of Sustainability and Environment’s desalination project, told the Inverloch meeting on August 1 that the community should lobby the Government on the issue. ‘I hope that by 2012 there has been a sufficient re-look at that and the public basically says to the Government: ‘Why don’t we recycle our water?’ ” http://www.theage.com.au/news/national/desal-chief-favoursrecycling/2007/08/09/1186530533466.html
● “Rainwater tanks are cost competitive with dams and desalination plants” 2007, Marsden Jacobs Associates (Economics Consultants)
● By the estimation of the author of this letter, the budget for proposed Victorian intercatchment mega-pipe grid (includes proposed desal) + the first ten years operation for the Wonthaggi desal project = more than enough funds to retrofit every house, small business and school in Victoria for water self-sufficiency, thereby putting into question the real economic reason why this project is suddenly on the Vic DSE drawing board…
● The desal project is clearly part of a the creation of a large inter-catchment water grid that suits (financial) company shareholders anticipating a privatised water system – this is likely to shift water services’ revenues (economic rent) from public bodies to private bodies. If we observe Victorian and overseas privatised electricty & train transport systems - the end result is a likely owner run-down of town water infrastructure except in certain city areas Refer: http://www.theage.com.au/articles/2007/07/30/1185647802259.html
● The creation of this grid would see a significant increase in wealth shift towards those with certain corporate shareholdings, away from Victoria’s water access payers (including this Shire)
● Bass Coast Shire employment and economic activity would be far better stimulated by using Australian owned and made water solutions contracted to local firms and microbusinesses rather than city and overseas based businesses. that appear to dominate the proposal. We locals could then deliver localised water solutions that can be rolled out back into the cities. This would show-case rural expertise in water collection, reuse, piping and conservation methods. A local centre for Localised Water Security , setup with help from State’s deep water money pockets, would be ideal rather than the current millions spent on consultants and engineers who are not residents of Bass Coast nor have an office here.
● We could see no Australian technology sited as the preferred expertise/IP & equipment - this is a cruel loss of business and jobs to Australia. Australian made & owned technology is available. Refer: http://www.atlantisresourcescorporation.com/pages/applications.htm
Dear Wyn,
Thank you for your comments. Your opinions shed some light on a worrying public perception of the issue. The 3+billion dollars required for the plant’s start-up and the location of the plant are the least worrying concerns, and barely worthy of consideration in contrast. Desalination is the easiest way out of our water problems and really should be considered as a last resort. We still have other more viable options to explore before taking this conveniently irresponsible and easy way out.
Australians are the highest domestic users of water in the world (Watermark, 2007, p. 50), and we’re behaving as if the environment is a resource to be exploited. The huge amounts of energy (largely coming from a powerplant that uses water to produce the energy) and environmental impacts of the profound amount of waste produced, buried in land and returned to sea, make this an irresponsible option to consider when there are alternatives; no matter where it is proposed to be built in Victoria.
Cleaning up industry, effective use of storm water and grey water, large scale water recycling, water tanks in suburban households, etc, may be much better options. Certainly they’ll require a shift in our mindsets, but with a little bit of effort we can get there. Our water issues are national and require a unified national approach, not simply dumping a desalination plant near every capital city and continuing to waste water in the bafflingly irresponsible ways we do now.
You speak of Goverment’s taking risks but perhaps you should consider the deeper implications and maybe take a risk by personally doing something about the water issue, or at least considering the facts and alternatives, instead of returning to your cave to let someone else conveniently handle the problem for you.
- daniel
Lincoln’s quote…Brumby’s team would be happy to read that! Suggest you remove it and replace with a less defeatist one.
Kind regards, keep up the good fight
Rosemary
My, you are a very articulate 14yo! I’d rather not die of thirst because it was “too expensive” to do anything about it.
Wyn, I do agree that we need water to live. As to your other comments, I don’t think you fully understand the impact of a desalination plant of this magnitude. You said that the desalination plant should only be used “when the taps run dry”. The desal plant will cost at least $3.1 billion to build. Under the PPP, water rates will have to rise dramatically to cover the cost of the desalination plant whether we use the water or not. Also, what do you mean by wealthy rural types? I am completely against the desalination plant but not because I am worried about my property value- I am only 14.
Water is pivotal to life. We can live without gas, electricity, oil, etc, but if we don’t have water we die very quickly. I think we should construct the desal plant, but only to be used when the taps run dry. Or should we all die of thirst because wealthy rural types are worried about their property values? Governments have to make tough decisions, and there is risk in everthing people do. If we didn’t take risks, we would all be living in caves.
Rita, thanks for your feedback. Actually I am one Victorian who has already installed a tank, and on my return from interstate, intend to not only connect to laundry / toilet, but intend to install a 2nd tank to help carry the load. Your point about the desal plant using copious amounts of energy is acknowledged, so my 1st preference would be to build additional dams, which could not only provide additional water, but generate hydro power, thereby assisting to reduce reliance on coal fired generators. Dams are not the total answer but also education as you rightly point out.
Anyway good luck with your campaign.
Grant I can see your point of view but you forgot to mention that there is the re-education of people re water usage…I remember when recycling came into our lives and how hard it was to get the family into the good habit of re-cycling, now its just accepted and done. We can do it and should do it for the sake of our children, and the oceanic life forms that a huge or small desal would impact detrimentally on! There are already people who have connected a tank to their toilet or laundry, and there are other things that would boost our water tank businesses,everyone to have a tank, every large shopping centre put tanks on their roofs. That water could then be used for public facilites, and also their workers.There are lots of options and they would probably work out cheaper than the Desal plant which is just an energy guzzler,a green house gas emmitter,a public on-going cost,a destroyer of animals,an eyesore to our tourists who we love and depend on, and a big sign of the hypocrisy of our governments..
Sorry people but from my perspective, there are only 3 logical ways to obtain our ever increasing water requirements. A. Desal plant, B. New dams to harvest what becomes available from time to time in rivers ( imagine how much we would have saved during the Gippsland floods is the Gov had now bowed to minority groups, and built a dam ). C. Steal the water from central Victoria. There are some other options, such as recycling storm water, or putting down new recycled water mains, however there is no way the Victorian Government could ever hope to finance without huge water rate increases ( at least x 4 ) causing major grief to the battler population ( in Queensland, not sure in Vic yet, but will come soon if not yet there, all households, including tenants must pay for their water usage ( ie. water rates )). Although a desal plant does have acknowledged issues, it is pretty straight forward, extensively used world wide technology.
PS. You can forget eco-tourisim, as I suggest that this activity will dratically die when an estimated 20 cents / litre carbon tax is implemented on petrol after we sign to Kyoto.
As a Labour supporter I am shamed by the process surrounding the desal proposal. I thought Victorians had seen the back of these kinds of rough shod practices some years ago. Seems not. Democratic engagement and transparency are looking mighty compromised at this point -if the government is concerned about risk managing their political reputation, they need to address, seriously, their own processes. Please listen, Premier Brumby, proceeding without a democratic mandate is not the way forward. The social, economic, environmental and political costs are too high.
Last time I looked we lived in a democratic society. What happened?
Water Minister Tim Holding, on the ABC last night, apparently thinks due process, independant analysis, and public consultation is not needed at all in the building of this monstrocity.
He stated that the need to do a enviromental impact study will be decided by the Minister for Planning. His decision will come from so called ‘expert’ scientific advise provided by Tim Holding. Then the final decision in the end comes down to the planning minister anyway. Tell me that the planning minster is going to give the government any answer other than the one they want to hear.
It’s a total sham, and all Victorians, wheather for or against the desal plant, should at least be alarmed at the way this government has dictated the outlines for planning.
NO DESAL PLANT, NOT HERE, NOT ANYWHERE!
well done here!! i’ve never personally visited this coastline but it looks beautiful. victoria is beautiful and does not need the eyesore of a desalination plant built anywhere on our shores. the idea of desalination makes my blood boil. humanity has nothing without the environment and humans are continuing to make stupid decisions. i grew up on a farm, i know how precious water is. so why not further educate melbournians on the preciousness of water, offer rainwater tanks to suburban homes, put further pressure on industry… he pipeline from the golbourn will be enough for now, i am not saying stealing water from northern victorian farmers is ok, but the idea of saving water from evaporation in the food bowl for melbourne makes sence, and does not use the engergy a desalination plant does… if we want it to rain, we need to minimise greenhouse gas emissions in every way we can, and we are building a desalination plant? pfft.
When are politicians going to wise up about Australia’s climate. Building a desalination plant and destroying an already fragile coastal environment is not an acceptable course of action for ensuring future water supplies. How about putting the energy into conservation, preservation and educating the public on more environmentally friendly ways to use water. It’s ridiculous that all this money is being put into a temporary solution which will in the end cause more problems than the short term benefits it provides.
No desalination plant for Wonthaggi.
I made a slide show of the youth led rally in Wonthaggi.
Contact the Sustainability Education Group if you want a copy -
http://mc2.vicnet.net.au/home/sustyed/web/seg_03_07.html
I am against the Desal Plant as i feel the Penguins would be killed by the brine left after the water has be cleaned.
I never took any photes from the youth protest march. so i was wondering if anyone else did so i can post them on my environment group website
http://enviro-aware.spaces.live.com/
if you have any photoes please email the to me at enviro-aware@hotmail.com
cheers
Charli Christall
I do not agree with the proposel of a desalination plant for a number of reasons. The area sorrounding the pipeline would be totally destroyed, and many environmental problems in Wonthaggi-Kilcunda would occur. Despite the hazards towards wildlife, the plant would be a huge eye sore and would decourage any tourism to the area; especially surfers, swimmers and beach-goers.
I think that the de salination plant is a bad idea because the piplines will wreck the environment and the surf will be destroyed.
Please keep me informed
Keep Bass Coast Beautiful
Dom could not get onto the website that you put on the notice board re the toxic chemical stream…..I was interested in that and wanted to download some info for my friends and self..any other websites I could get into.??…I disagree about writing letters as they are tools which can be used for good, and there are pollies who take notice….I agree with Serena of Dalyston that there are too many people who are complacent and who give in too easily..it is better to try and fail than fail to try…Rita
I was at Saturday’s march taking pics and happy to receive email contact from any person who would like to share their angle with me… email me at lauren@thestar.com.au Cheers
PS Sorry - Mark & Nick’s fabulous video, which you can still find if you scroll down about eight comments.
i am a year 12 student and ill be at that march representing the youth of wonthaggi on saturday but some how i believe no matter how much we protest, the government of today just wont care. Its worth a try though isnt it.
Not sure about the push for water privatisation? here’s more news….
http://www.theage.com.au/news/national/ministry-split-all-about-economics/2007/08/02/1185648061440.html
Since when is water not a holistic issue - Surely it covers the ecological, social, economic, personal, and cultural dimensions …. “Finance Minister and rising star of the dominant Right faction Tim Holding” and his corporate mates want you to believe it’s all about ‘boys club economics’ …..
We need to join the Goulbourn people in their outrage…. I heard they were to rally in Melbourne again soon -
The banks (and their political backers - Liberal&Labour parties) are openly pushing for privatization of water - a constant flow of wealth would then be syphoned to corporate shareholders.
They will ‘buy low/sell high’ as if water is just another stock on just another stock market.
Has privatisation of town water ever been successful anywhere ?
Why do people keep voting for Lib/Lab political duopoly when the result is the same - a flow of our natural wealth (value of water) into private accounts ?
Could we not vote for other parties that have a different policy on public assets and our shared natural capital?
Ken Smith supports the desal & it seems the privatization of water (and anything!) - what does Ken know about the long term economics and ecology of water ?
Why is he our rep? Ken represents big biz not the people of this region (check out the Ted Baillieu family corporate dynasty)
http://www.theage.com.au/news/BUSINESS/Bank-backs-privatised-Australian-water/2007/07/30/1185647802259.html
this saturday there will be protest march against the desalination plant!
11th of august at 10am
Organised by the youth of Bass Coast
Starting at Miner’s Whistle (opposite Whalebone Hotel); marching up McBride Avenue to Bass Coast Shire offices.
Dress in BLACK!!!
Bring your banners!!!
Bring your voices!!!
Bring your friends!!!
Spread the word!!!
HAVE YOUR SAY… IT’S YOUR FUTURE!!!
www.yourwateryoursay.com
great idea JayZee. if everyone who finds this site can be proactive in their area and make up small posters on notice boards or flyers with wwwyourwateryoursay.com Get the word out there! Lead the charge JayZee, let us know how you get on!
John Thwaites was an Illywacker as the Minister for Water and still is. Lets hope that the new Minister for Water Mr Tim Holding steps up to the plate and delivers some realistic solutions that work.
There is some very good information on the toxic chemical stream on the clean ocean website www.cleanocean.org.
We have support from
1. the Goulburn mob
2. Democrats
3. scientists
4. academic- primary/secondary/tertiary
5. Greens
6. The Age editorial The Age, 20th June 2007
7. Indigeneous community
8. Federal Liberal party
9. Nationals
10.just about all envoironment groups
11. music industry
12. arts community
“BRING IT ON”
Hi Everyone,
Check Out
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LBkaHIVIo9Y
Thanks Nick for your filming - fabulous footage!
Hope this helps.
Cheers - Mark.
Added by admin:
Thank you Mark and Nick for the wonderful work. We’ve added the video to the site here to allow people to comment on it here also. http://www.yourwateryoursay.com/2007/07/31/desalination-plant-video/
Hi,
Perhaps we good actively campaign in the upcoming by elections. Hand out flyer’s at schools to parents as they pick up or drop off children. With a short simple message eg. would you rather 3.1 Bil. spent on education.
Or hand out flyer’s in front of Clinics with the message to read 3.1 Bil. on Health.
Or at the rial stations 3.1 Bil on Trans.
I would be willing to put in some time on such a scheme.
Cheers Darryl
Because the need for an EES for this proposal is obvious (at least to objectors), may I suggest that you include the following link at this website?
‘Ministerial guidelines for assessment of environmental effects under the Environment Effects Act 1978′
http://www.dpi.vic.gov.au/…
I’m not sure how helpful this may be, but it’s a part of the armoury.
Bob Thompson - Cape Woolamai
I note the editor’s concerns about my suggestion that attendance at the info sessions may be a waste of time, depending upon the information sought, and I am happy to support your call to the masses that they go along.
For mine, however, it would only be to collect a form for sending questions to DSE. If such a form is available at the DSE website, I’ll try that first. Perhaps this option might be worth checking, and a link published at this YWYS site. If such a form is not at DSE’s site - why not? This issue goes way beyond the Bass Coast.
I think the point has to be made that Mr Bracks’s “open and transparent” government has deteriorated to the stage that the new leader will have to be made accountable to the people, and made to explain why this government is so reluctant to expose its underbelly to public scrutiny these days.
In the face of some fine evidence re recycling, to which you have now provided links at this website, this State government must be pressured into explaining why it has chosen desalination in preference to the sewerage recycling option. That, for me, is the number one question that should be asked of the Government - not Mr Seaborne or DSE officers.
A quick visit to the website of Melbourne Water’s Eastern Treatment Plant confirms that “it was announced in October that a $300 million upgrade of the Eastern Treatment Plant to treat wastewater to Class A standard would begin next year and would be completed by 2012. This will mean 135,000 megalitres of treated water (135 Gl) is available for recycling in new housing estates and industry and will be the foundation of the Eastern Water Recycling Proposal, which has been confirmed as technically feasible after a two-year study.”
So 135 Gigalitres/annum of Class A water could be available at Carrum for one-tenth of the desal cost! If it cost the same again to turn this into fully purified drinking water, this would still only be ONE-FIFTH of the cost!
This discrepancy by itself should be enough to set HUGE alarm bells ringing.
Bob Thompson - Cape Woolamai
“YOU CANT BUY WHAT I’VE GOT” - Darryl Kerrigan, The Castle.
Some great suggestions by Mat Cadwallender - let’s take it to the community.
The message is getting out there by those wonderful people who are making it happen but still not enough action from the community. Some people still aren’t aware of the petition.
United we stand…
Also i’m starting to get pissed off with people who buy into the fear that the government is trying to create. “There is no use in protesting”etc. they need to stand up for themselves. The government knew long ago about our countries problem with water supply they are now shit scared and looking for the quick fix and also know they can make a profit. What are they going to sell us next? Air? It’s greed and consumerism. Let’s not buy into it!
And what is the Council doing? Aren’t they meant to reflect the interests of the community?
I feel a passion to assist in this environmental effort so use me.
P.S Great website - Cheers
Stick it to the man….
Impressive website - great effort,thanks.
Our local representatives on the Bass Coast Shire Council need to know our concerns about the proposed desalination plant. If EVERYONE writes or emails their Ward representative and Mayor they will hopefully represent our views.
Dear All,
Listening to Macker(Australia All Over)this morning. He mentioned that he and his radio program would be at Federation square next week as part of the A.B.C. 75 year celebrations. “I am not suggesting that we hi jack his show.” However he seems to be passionate about the environment, sea/oceans and I have heard before take a swipe at different political parties.
Could be an opportunity for State and Australia wide publicity.
Cheers Darryl.
On the specific alternative (to desal) of recycling water for drinking, I strongly suggest that readers should go to another document produced by GHD (yes! the same company that, with Melbourne Water, produced the desalination Feasibility Study! - dated June 2007).
This other document, ALSO DATED JUNE 2007(!), is titled ‘Using recycled water for drinking’, and it was produced for the Australian Government’s National Water Commission!
An article about this was in this week’s Sentinel Times, under the headline ‘Recycled water the way ahead’, in which the NWC’s chairman, Mr Ken Matthews AO “explains the facts about recycled water”. This article is in very small typeface, but it’s a darn good read! (And I can’t imagine a person who has earned an AO would put his name to porkies in the papers.)
The full 80-page report can be downloaded from www.nwc.gov.au/publications/docs/RecycledWaterForDrinking.pdf . (Yesterday I printed out pp. 8-13 only, but that was enough to whet the appetite.)
At this stage, I’m not sure how the greenhouse ‘footprint’ of recycling sewerage (e.g. at the Carrum ETP) would compare with desalination at Bass Coast and pumping 85 kms to Cardinia Res., but I suspect it would be much smaller.
On the $$$ cost front, I know there is a 500 kV main feeder just north of Cranbourne, and heading west! So there’s a huge reduction in capital costs to begin with.
Bob Thompson - Cape Woolamai
On page 4 of the Sentinel Times of July 17 2007, there was an article headlined ‘Government ready to talk on desalination’, and it was about the series of community information sessions currently under way. I attended the first of these in San Remo last night. As I suspected, these sessions are not designed to facilitate any questioning of the Vic Govt about its reasons for selecting desalination as an answer to Melbourne’s water supply problems, nor for hearing from the people any concerns about this decision, or for lodging any suggestions regarding OTHER BETTER ALTERNATIVES to desalination.
The project director Garry Seaborne repeatedly parried such questions, saying (in effect) “That question should be directed to the Government - not me - my brief is solely to direct and manage this desalination project - I am not here to answer any questions about whether this project is appropriate.”
In this context, many of the questions suggested in ‘Your Water Your Say’s 5-page document will not be answered by Mr Seaborne and his team. What this means is that Government is NOT READY TO TALK about the matters of greatest concern to objectors to this project.
I believe the Action Group should (but how?) direct its energies towards bringing maximum pressure to bear upon the Government IN PARLIAMENT to stop hiding behind its departmental officers and start answering these concerns.
To those thinking about attending the other sessions… unless you want facts about the project itself, don’t waste your time. Stay at home and write a protest letter to the Herald-Sun, with a copy to the (new) Premier and your Member of Parliament instead.
Bob Thompson, Cape Woolamai
Comment by the Editor:
Dear All, please DO go to those information sessions and “get counted” by filling out the provided DSE feedback forms to get answers to your questions and concerns.
As it states on those feedback forms the DSE would like to hear your views on the project:
1. Do you have any suggestions or concerns about any aspect of the proposal? If so, please list them.
2. Would you visit a desalination plant project desk in Wonthaggi for information?
3. Was this information session useful? Would you be interested in attending community sessions in the future?
4.If yes, what times/locations are preferred?
5. On what aspect of the desalination plant would you like more information?
And at the bottom of the form you can leave your name and preferred means of receiving information to be kept informed.
If you do not give any feedback to the DSE, they can go back to the Government and truthfully report that no interest was shown!
Suggest that the following link to the Aboriginal Affairs web site should be given on your web page. Under the Act, large developments require preparation of Cultural Heritage Management Plans. The map for the Powlett area shows that it is a site of Cultural Heritage Significance.
Registered Aboriginal Parties are responsible for heritage decision making at the local level.
On page 14 of the Sentinal Times (Jul 17th) there is an application for registration of the Bunurong Land Council for the local area.
Well now that Steve Bracks has givin up on politics who do we adress or objections to?
Great to have come across this site.
I am amazed at the lack of concern people have about the desalination plant…some people don’t even know about it.
This city has the potential to show the way and manage its water like other sophisticated cities. It’s ok for the Queen to have recycled water at Buckingham Palace so surely it’s ok Tiffany in Toorak!
Imagine if all the money went to using all the water we waste here. What about all the treated waste water from Werribee? And the water from carrum Downs? Let alone all the storm water and so on.
This isn’t Dubai - it does rain here!
You would’ve noticed there’s barely any negative press in the media about the desalination plans. The only article I’ve seen that’s well worth reading is…
http://www.theage.com.au/news/kenneth-davidson/…
You might have to copy that and put it in your browser address area.
Please let me know if any protest marches are being planned.
William Pearse (Prahran)
WOW! Well done everyone! please download the petition and get the word out! Power to the people!!!!!!!!
Could i make another suggestion: put the latest replies / statements at the top of this list(reverse the order), so you dont need to scroll thru to the end to get to the latest responses, this makes it easier for people checking in regulary.
A lot of city dwellers in my local community in Brunswick and I’m sure all over the Melbourne metro area (yes: we’re not mindless greedy water hogs in the city!!) are appalled by the illogical concept of building this energy-hungry water factory on our pristine shores. From their own private initiative, they have collected signatures at our local school to send to Mr Bracks. How can we harness this energy and pool it (agreeing with Neville, above), and let them know in Spring St. The idea of an online petition, similar to the get-up campaigns springs to mind. Could the savvy person who set up this website organise this and attach it to this website as well as email it to all people already on the contacts list, who will then email it on to everyone on their contacts list? I am sure there will be a ground-swell of support, that the govt. won’t be able to brush aside, and people will feel like they are not completely powerless!
As text could be useful: a summary of the presentation given by John (Dunstan ??) at the Wonthaggi Protest meet, who summed up all the concerns beautifully and succinctly. Great work on this site. Well done!
Great site - keep up the good work.
well howdy, love the site man good job thankd again
Thought you may be interested to know the Wonthaggi Desal advertising campaign cost $815,100.00.
Hope a similar amount of “our money” will be spent by Government to stop this thing - I doubt it!
Mitch
It looks like we are not going to have any input to the strategy this fight will take so I will have my say here: -
1. Writing to Bracks and co. in a waste of time and energy.
2. We have to agree on and focus on the things that are weak in their strategy and the things that are strong in ours.
3. The only way we will win this fight is to convince the rest of Victoria that this plant is a political soft option and thus force Bracks to look again.
4. Rather than a scattered approach and hope to hit the target we must focus on the points we agree on and strategically bombard every letter page and talk back radio we can organise.
5. We must also build to as big a protest rally to Spring Street that we can muster, with the placards showing the strategy messages we agree on. A small insignificant parade we only weaken our case.
6. We have to make up some ground in the debate with a bang because Bracks has a good start and a premise that the state needs water badly and so we are starting from way behind and from a seemingly weak position.
7. And then we have to continue to get the messages we agree on across consistently enough to have the desired effect.
I wish to work with the interim committee, when is the next meeting to put in place an aim, goal and strategic plan?
Regards,
Neville Wright
Hello!
What a great website! I attended the town meeting and I have been using the site for research - I am doing an persuasive peice on the issue for my English SAC.
Up here (Melbourne) all my teachers are really interested in the issue and I have already swayed their belifs with the amazing stats and facts that were said in the town meeting! I really believe we are going to achieve our goals! Let me know how I can help down this end.
p.s I think the WHOLE state should put in water tanks! Just an opinion!
The Age Diary Wedn 18 july…..
Gone to water..Unease abounds in the Wonthaggi patch as Water Minister ‘Buckets Twaites” and the rest of the Steve’s leadfooted administrators plough ahead with the Wonthaggi desalination plant they should have build 5 years ago.But,oblivious to the Wonthaggi locals,Spring Street tomorrow is holding a ‘briefing’ for MP’s (including lunch) to clear their heads on ‘desalination and water security”
Perhaps some info on ‘land security’ for Wonthaggi voters may be an idea, too.
Hi everyone, I’ve received a reply to my email to the Mayor about the proposal from Roslyn Jenzen who is the Economic Development Project Officer. This is the nly reply so far to the 5 or 6 I sent on Friday the 13th. Roslyn attached the following Media release from the Government about the upcoming community information sessions. I’ve copied it here for everyone’s information hoping as many people as possible can attend.
Q - would it be appropriate to post the replies we receive from people we email on this website?
Media release
Friday 13 July, 2007
COMMUNITY INFORMATION SESSIONS ON DESALINATION PLANT
Community information sessions on Victoria’s $3.1billion desalination plant will start in the last week in July in various locations across the Bass Coast region.
The first round of sessions will be held in Wonthaggi, Kilcunda, Inverloch and San Remo from Friday 27 July.
Community sessions along the coast will make information more accessible to everyone who has questions or comments about the desalination plant.
Project team members will be available to answer any questions on the project.
These sessions are part of an extensive community consultation program which has already involved meetings with landowners, council members and residents.
The government was working with the local community to make sure that the most up to date information on site locations, environmental issues and other aspects of the project was accessible to the public.
The Government will set up a permanent project desk in Wonthaggi in early August, so that the community will have access to information on the project as it progresses.
The desalination plant will deliver an additional 150 billion litres of water by the end of 2011, to provide security of water supply for South Gippsland, Western Port, Geelong and Melbourne.
Desalination Community Information Sessions:
• Friday 27 July - San Remo
• Monday July 30 – Wonthaggi
• Wednesday August 1 - Kilcunda and Inverloch
Details of the community sessions, including specific locations and times, will be advertised in local media next week.
This proposal is more about privatising water, encouraging wasteful use of water and about someone making buckets of money.
What I would like to know is; will the desalinated water, (which will still contain small amounts of salt), be;
A. pumped into the existing water storages, ie. mixed with the stored pure rainwater now used - thereby lowering the standard of that water,
B. stored in a new storage facility built just for the desalinated water, or
C. sent to the user in a new purpose built pipe system?
If the answer is either B and/or C, this will mean a considerable expense. Is this expense factored into the $3.2 billion or is it an ‘extra’ cost?
AND: If the answer is either B and/or C wouldn’t it be cheaper and wiser and better for the planet/ environment to put our money and energy towards recycling all of the waste water currently pumped out to sea and redirect it (using the same purpose built storages and pipes of options B and C) to industries and households. We could then conserve the high quality water in our current storages for drinking instead of contaminating that with inferior desalinated water.
The ‘problem’ with that solution is in the fact that business interests pushing for desalination don’t get to make buckets of money way into the future through controlling and selling OUR WATER!
Hi,here are a few slogans for you to have some fun with:
Desalination,would you like nuclear with that?
A brumby wont drag me to desalination
Desalination plant=concentration camp
desalinator:half star energy rating
-the last one could be in the form of a sticker that you would get on a household appliance.
This precious landscape deserves our attention before it’s too late. Unfortunately its easy to find other states that have opted for the bandaid approach to counter energy demands.
What better a time to begin investing in more efficient water management and recycling options? “Carbon offsets” sound lovely as an afterthought, but will not reduce the intensive power demands a plant of this size would require. Let’s start at the begining. How did we get here? What can we do to ensure our children and our children’s children do not pay an enormous price for the decisions our government make today.
Come on everyone, go to the email addresses and send one to Bracks etc. If he gets a few thousand emails he might take notice.
Great website,
I would like to register my support for opposistion to the proposed desalination plant. Desalination is a short sighted, quick fix solution to a complex, challenging problem that is both cultural and physical.
If we are to tackle the problems associated with water shortage we must first challenge our ideas of resource use and management. This is especially applicable to large business and indusry. We must first examine our water usage and how first to preserve this resource.
It seems as though the government is determined to force through the building of this energy sapping, environmentally unfriendly and ugly plant. Should we not first examine other water saving measures ? Why can we not first utilize the water falling freely on our roofs, and save this in water tanks. Why can’t we examine recycled water options which are less energy intensive? Why can’t we examine our current water catchment processes and decrease our loss of captured water as a result of evaporation and overflow. And most importantly, should we not examine or own water usage and culture ?
The government must take an more broad, intellagent imaginative appproach to water resource management. This is not going to be the Premiers’ lasting legacy to Victoria. The building of a desalination plantin Gippslandmust be opposed
Thanks for a great site. You are achieving your purpose.
Hi mat again just with a few ideas.
1.Info tent at cowes or major tourist point. People in Melb who use our coast will get behind us but we must go to them get info out
2.mass protest at willys and powlett Massive sos or no brackish water letters on beach
3. a well known face, kelly slater, jon butler, al gore! mick doohan,rex hunt, etc to champion our cause Ernie Sigly spend alot of time at inverloch so does gary lyon. lets get them involved.
4.sign alon the road not 1 lets bombard them from cranbourn on
Love to get involved a bit more on one of the committees. Thanks Mat
Brackish bracks
How far out to sea are they intending to pump waste salt and chemicals? Not far enough i bet.But then how far is enough?In the short term maybe the continental shelf, but the long term who knows what will happen .Whats wrong with using our existing catching systems[domestic tanks, big ones] to a greater extent before going down this path .Bracks has done nothing usefull and then this comes out of the blue. This is bracksy,s baby .What an absolute mess this will be, bracks The creator of the “dead sea” Stop the idiot..
Hello to all protesters.
I do want to get involved and being a member of the Coastal Guardians, I have a swag of suggestions on how we lost the fight to have the six useless wind turbines erected at Wonthaggi.
Mainly, we fought the fight on their grounds and not ours.
That is the way they had setup the debate and we fell for it.
Hope to see you at the committee meetings.
Regards,
Neville
Congratulations on an excellent website. I’ve just got a few points that were not mentioned at the public meeting on July 13 - I hope they may be helpful.
The Wonthaggi sewage outfall is close to the site - will the effluent enter the inlet pipes?
Given the plant may provide 25-30% of Melbourne’s water won’t it need really tight security? How will this be acheived?
Acid sulphate soils are an issue around Anderson’s inlet - are they an issue on the proposed site?
How can the government be so sure this is the correct site when the ocean currents and soil testing have not been conducted yet? Not to mention flora and fauna surveys.
It sets a very poor and worrying precedent to preempt the decision to go ahead with any development before the scientific and engineering tests have been done.
Does the Dept of Sustainability and Environment have a conflict of interest if they are deciding on whether an EES is necessary as well as managing the project?
I have emailed the contacts at this site requesting help
www.mccn.org.au
check it out - maybe a link?
Nice work guys loved the website and the info,will be sending emails to as many as I can,my husband and I would be willing to go around Wonthaggi door knocking and collecting peoples responses and signatures,nfortunately we are just pensioners so we do not have the money to support the cause financially but will do what we can to help in other ways.Yours J & R Frederiks….
Congratulations to all involved in organising tonight’s meeting in Wonthaggi. I just hope our local Press do us justice.Until tonight my focus had been the effects of the brine pumped out on marine life without thinking of what was being sucked in & “sludge”! I filled in a sheet saying I wanted to join the committee & listed a couple of areas I may be involved in, however I’m no expert & also later thought of other ways I may be able to help - can we have a meeting of all who have volunteered to join so we can pool our “expertise”,”enthusiasm”. This is a fight we must win - not just for South Gippsland but for the marine life that can’t defend themseves. Jill.
Impressed with tonights presentation, and the way a diverse range of opinions was respected. Willing to help wherever i can after hours as work full time. My experience is project management/case management and administration. I have undertaken successful environmental submissions/procedures and initiatives in my current workplace. My skills may not be what you require, but i am willing to help wherever possible. Kind Regards, and thanks to you all for getting the wheels in motion successfully in a short time frame! Regards, Anita Leyden.
love to be involved, keep me informed. great night, good info, lets fight the bastards.
I am interested in being involved in any way possible. I can help with photography and poster/flyer design. These are interest areas of mine, I am not a professional.
I was at the Kilcunda meeting and at the Wonthaggi meeting tonight and am an active memer of the Bass Coast Board Riders Club.
I look forward to further communications with you.
Cheers
Jamie Cummins
Inverloch
the meeting tonight was great! i believe that that one of the most effective steps to generate public opposition to the plant will be through education! we need to get the negative effects this plant will have on the environment to our community to the planet! out to the public! and we need to get it out as loud as we can! we need people to sign the petition to make bracks listen.
No to desalination!
No to the destruction of our coast, our precious marine life and already endangered coastal species. We depend on our environment for our survival.
Our children depend on us to make the right decisions for their future.